मैले यहाँ अरु सबै साथीहरुले दिनुभएको तर्कलाई पढ्न भ्याएको छैन । खाली pinpoint को केही कुराहरुलाई सम्बोधन गर्न खोज्दै छु । मैले सुरुमा नै लेखिसके धर्मको बिकास अहिले जस्तो नियम कानूनहरु नरहेको अवस्थामा मानिसलाई सामाजिक रुपमा अनुशासित बनाउन नै भएको हो । अझ सुरुमा त मान्छेले त्यस्ता शक्तिहरुलाई पूज्थ्यो जसको मानिसको जीवन यापनमा महत्वपूर्ण भूमिका हुन्थ्यो, जस्तो कि पानी, हावा, वायु, सूर्य । यदी हिन्दू धर्मलाई नै हेर्ने हो भने पनि सुरुमा मान्छेले पानीलाई पूज्थे, आकाशलाई पूज्थे, आगोलाई पूज्थे, सूर्यलाई पूज्थे, धर्तीलाई पूज्थे । पहिलो त यिनिहरुले मान्छेलाई आफ्नो जीवन बाँच्ने आधार प्रदान गर्थे भने अर्को यिनिहरुबाट बेला बखत उत्पन्न हुने प्रकोपबाट बाँच्न सकियोस् भन्ने उद्देस्यले पनि यिनिहरुको पूजा गरिन्थ्यो । वेदहरुले बिशेष गरेर यिनै तत्वहरुको पूजामा जोड दिएका छन् । यिशु, कृष्ण, पैगम्बर मोहम्मद, बुद्द जस्ता मानवीय ईश्वर धेरै पछी मात्र बनेका हुन् । ग्रन्थहरुमा वर्णन गरिए जस्तै यिनिहरुमा चामत्कारिक शक्ति पनि थियो कि थिएन भन्ने प्रश्न आफ्नो ठाउँमा छ तर यिनिहरु आफ्नो ज्ञानका कारण, मानव समुदायलाई आफ्नो सेवाद्वारा वशमा पार्न सकेको कारण अथवा आफ्नो चामत्कारीक कार्यहरुको कारण ईश्वरीय स्वरुपमा परिणत गरिएका हुन् । मानव सभ्यताको बिकाससँगै धार्मिक विधीहरुमा पनि क्रमश: परिवर्तन हुँदै आयो र यो मानव जीवनको अभिन्न अगंको रुपमा परिणत भयो । अहिलेको अवस्था यस्तो छ कि मान्छे सजिलै यि धार्मिक आस्थाबाट आफूलाई तुरुन्त अलग्ग गर्न सक्दैन । बरु परि आए धर्मको नाममा एकले अर्कोलाई मार्न पनि तयार हुन्छ । मलाई यी मानवीय स्वरुपहरुलाई भगवान मान्नै पर्छ भन्ने लाग्दैन । तर जव संसार रचनाको कुरा आउँछ तव कतिपय कुरालाई भौतिक शास्त्रले पनि वाख्या गर्न सक्दैन । मलाई everything is created from nothing भन्ने कुरामा पटक्क पनि विश्वास छैन । यो वास्तवमा दिमाग रिङ्गाउने प्रश्न छ । कहाँबाट आयो सब ? जति सोच्यो त्यति टाउको दुख्छ । Theory of infinity को सोध गर्दा गर्दा चार जना वैज्ञानिक पागल नै भए । स्टेफिन हकिङ्सको The Grand Design मा दिइएका तर्कहरु पनि खासै चित्त बुज्दो छैन । मैले यसो भनेर यो सबै भगवानले नै बनाए भन्ने खोजेको पनि होइन । तर केही न केही छ, केही शक्ति छ ... अब कहाँ छ हामीलाई देखा भन्यो भने चाँही देखाउन सक्दिन । एउटा कुरा के पनि हो भने हरेक कुरा देखाउन नै सकिन्छ भन्ने पनि छैन । अहिले सम्म electron लाई कसैले देखेको छैन झन quark र antiquark लाई त कसले पो देखेको होला र । त्यसो भए ति सबैको अस्तित्व छ भनेर नै ठोकुवा कसरी गर्न सकिन्छ ? अहिले सम्म वैज्ञानीकहरुले तिनिहरुको अस्तित्व मानेका छन् किनकी ति सुक्ष्म तत्वहरुले बैज्ञानीकहरुले अनुमान गरे जस्तै व्यवहार देखाउछन् । न्युटनले प्रकाश स-साना कणहरुले बनेको हुन्छ (Particle Theory) हुन्छ भन्दा सबैले हो भने पछी होइन प्रकाश त तरङहरुले बनेको हुन्छ (Wave Theory) भन्ने तर्क आयो र न्युटनको थियोरीले हावा खायो पछि आइन्स्टाइन आए पछि भने होइन प्रकाशमा यी दुबै थरी गुण हुन्छ भन्ने कुरा आयो । यसकारण अहिले everything is created from nothing भन्ने तथ्यमा अझै धेरै काम गर्न बाँकी छ । तर यदि मैले भने जस्तै कुनै अद्रिष्य शक्ति छ भने पनि त्यसलाई भगवान भन्न मिल्छ कि मिल्दैन भन्ने अर्को प्रश्न छ । भगवान हुनको लागि सबभन्दा अनिवार्य शर्त भनेको चेतना हुनु हो र यदि यस्तो हुदो हो त दुष्टहरुले मस्ती र रातो दिन राम्रो काम गर्नेहरुले सास्ती पक्का पनि पाउदैनन थिए होला । तर पनि म आफूलाई निराशाले घेरेको बखत म त्यस अद्रिश्य शक्तिलाई सम्झन्छु, म त्यतिखेर यो झुटो हो भनेर सोच्दिन । तर यसले मलाई कुनै चमत्कारीक लाभ पनि दिदैन बरु मेरो मनमा रहेको आशालाई जोगाइ राख्छ, मलाई धैर्यता प्रदान गर्छ । जुन हामीलाई त्यस्तो अवस्थामा एकदम आवश्यक हुन्छ ।

I am not worried about whether god exists or not. What bugs me more is the human interpretation of what a god is. As a reasonable person, it is hard for me to accept the god as a savior, creator, provider and the destroyer of all the beings in this universe. The chaos, unfairness, evilness and the cruelty we the “god’s children” have, alone is a proof  that god is irrelevant on what goes on in this universe. Questions like if god created everything why would he create evil with it? And if he had power to change everything why are so many children, poors, and unfortunates are suffering and dying in this world? 

Some of you drew out an interesting point saying there were so many things that are unanswered such as when did it all start and how was this world created….this only means that his interpretation of god is his  unknowns. Just because there are few things that are beyond human comprehensions, it would be wrong to call everything beyond that a god’s act. According to that theory, for some, god may start just at 2+2 and for other it may start at Particle physics and for another it may start at String Theory.   

So my conclusion is either God does not exist or if he does exist he must be one helpless mofo just like us. One who is part of this nature and cannot change or control the nature. The important thing is to learn to live like a human being. In this modern age if you need a Bible or Geeta to tell you not to kill, not to steal, lie, hate, or anger…the basics of life ..i have nothing to say to you. I know those basics of life already and do not need to worship anyone to recite the same that is already a common sense for most people of this world. 

Some of you claim to call the peace you find with meditation a GOD…….would a pot smoker find the same god as you do when he is high in his coke? Some of you need god to REFUGE to when you are feeling down or scared.

Some of you have probably labeled me as an atheist already for what I have typed so far. But I do enjoy reading religious scripts and actively participate in or festivals. I enjoy reading those scripts as I believe they represent the human interpretation of what GOD was and the way of life meant back then.

 Homeyji,

Continue your story. You seem to have had an interesting experience.

Sadly, any discussion and debate on this topic always ends up being a vocabulary competition. Here is what I think, 

If you are buying a car will you buy it without critically examining every aspect of the car (like the price, previous owners, milege, history etc) ? if yes
Why not do the same about belief in god ? 

Also how about appying the scientific method ? 




Obviously, I don't believe in any god or goddess (defined by most major religion). I do believe in sun but then again, I don't think sun is god. If sun was god we would call it god not sun. 

I don't believe in supernatural power of god but i do believe that when i go to temple i feel the peace.
I don't believe that by putting something on your forehead from your parents will give you longer life but it does sure makes me feel closer to them.
I don't celebrate Dashain or Tihar coz it will get me god's blessing but I celebrate it coz it gives me great joy to be with family forgetting all day to day work.
I don't believe in god/ religion but i sure appreciate the moral lessons it teaches.

मलाई अघि एउटा कुरा भन्न छुटाए जस्तै लाग्यो । कुरा के भने मैले यहाँ आफ्नो मनमा भएको बिचार पोखेको मात्र हुँँ । प्रश्नकर्ताले सुरुमै त अझै भगवानलाई विश्वास गर्छस कि गर्दैनस भनेर सोधेका छन् त्यही भएर प्रश्नकर्तालाई जवाफ दिएको मात्र हो अनि आफ्नो किन त्यस्तो महसुस भयो भन्ने कुराको लागि एक दुई वटा उदाहरण दिएको हो । मेरो बिचारमा अरु साथीले पनि त्यसै गरिरहनु भएको होला । यहाँ कसैले कसैलाई तैले मेरो कुरा मान्नै पर्छ  भन्ने होइन । कसै कसैले आफ्नो तर्कलाई अलि राम्रोसँग प्रस्तुत गर्न नसक्लान तर कसैले कसैलाई त ठीक म बेठिक भन्नु पनि छैन । भगवान मान्न मन लाग्नेले मान्छ, मन नलाग्नेले मान्दैन । यसै पनि हामी भर्खर पढ्न सुरु गरेको बालक होइनौ र प्राय: वैचारिक रुपले  संतृप्त छौ । त्यसैले यहाँ एकले अर्कोलाई आफ्नो विचार लदाउने भन्ने प्रश्नै छैन ।  

There has been overwhelming discussion on existence and non-existence of God in this thread. We can not be rational and in the mean time prove the existence of God. That is why almost all religion demand blind faith from you.

But what is special about us human Being ( Homo Erectus),that is different form tiger, dog, plants, stones or snakes. We have consciousness, and can delve over our existence. Who we are? Where we came from ? Where we go after the death? But other animals can not do this. Among all the flora and fauna existing on this blue planet why only human being can do this? Are only we human being a special creation or favoured species of the GOD? But have we found the definite answers on our existence? It is big NO.

Does Cow or goat exist for us human being to provide milk and bread and mountains and nature exist for our happiness ansd contemplation?

That is why in my earlier thread I have quoted Darwin. Evolution is a fact and no body with rational scientific mind can deny this. About a million years ago ( the date may not be exact) our forefathers learned to walk on the earth with two legs instead of four legs, may be forced by some necessity.This forced our brain to develop further and gradually we developed capacity to think and plan.

There may be some super natural forces behind the whole drama of creation of the universe and evolution of species on the earth. For further exploration you can read Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawkins (there arguments for natural forces behind the creation) and Paul Davies ( His arguments for some purposeful hand behind the evolution and creation of Universe. But recent scientific research are pointing, no purpose behind the creation of universe. It is just spontaneous, and governed by physical laws and we exist because this universe exist and the earth has right climate for evolution.

Scientists are talking about multiverses, consist of billions of universes and not with three or four dimension but with twelve dimensions. It seems bizarre and out of our level of consciousness. For quantum physics there may be another universe just behind your eyes, which we can not see. That is what the greatest living scientist Stephen Hawkins means when he talks about the universe with multiple histories. If you are amateur and no background of science, quantum scientists do  look like  a bunch of madmen.

As I have mentioned in my other thread, God didn't create human, human created GOD. As simple as it is. And yet again there is no harm if you beleive in it.

god existence is not the must in every religion,
so if you say every religion is wrong , ur the stupidiest person in the world

World renowned Atheists have critisized abraham based religion not hinduism
 ie christian , muslim and jews 

And what is your definition about god?

Sun is god in hinduism and we all know sun exists. 

if people following religion are wrong ,it doesn't mean religion is wrong.

for example , stupid people who were lining up for buddha boy doesn't mean gautam budddha has re incarnated.

And lastly , people learn about real religion truths not what your ignorant parent have thought about it.
                     

Mero-desh ji,

Namaskar. Thank you so much for relaying your experience. I can relate to what you are saying greatly.

Before my parents left me in the ashram, I was super-ficially religious. What this means is that I had not had any deep debates about God or religion or anything. Like I said in my previous post, I was simply going to my relatives religious functions sometimes. My mother used to take vrata on Tuesdays for Ganeshji.

When I came to America as a young adolescent, I had brought a picture of Ganeshji. I used to offer a 'dhoop' to this picture before going to Middle-school. But beyond that, I had not thought about theology or religion or dharma in any deep way. I didn't need to. I was simply acting as a Nepal who was following rituals and my faith based on how I had seen my relatives do it. I didn't need to think about religion any deeper than that.

My father is a 'devout athiest.' He is a funny man. He takes religion as such a big joke that when there is a religioius discussion going on, he will put all his points in as if agreeing on anything and makes the religious person completely happy. You know this is the way a lot of our discussions go in Nepali social circles. We pat the guest on the back, we say whatever we need to, just to make the person in front of us happy, and we send them home. And then after they leave, we call them an idiot. So my father is like this.

My mother has very strong spiritual callings. She is quite well read for a Nepali woman. I would say my mother is more the intellectual in the family than my father, though my father has a lot more formal education than my mother. It is an interesting paradox.

So in my immediate home we had close to no religious practices. Now that my mother is aging she has more religious practices. But growing up, I didn't feel my parents took religion very seriously. Though I have to say that amongst my relatives, in my grandparents home, there was a lot of religious practice. I have a lot of happy memories of Nepal of running around with my cousins around my mamaghar during festival days. I feel nostalgic for them. I'm sure many of you can relate to this.

Anyway, due to a series of unfortunate (or maybe fortunate, depending on your perspective) events, my parents decided to leave me in the Ashram setting. They would come to pick me up close to three years later in this ashram. It was supposed to be a "harmless experiment." My parents were trying to avoid me going back to Nepal for my SLC. They knew what a b*itch it would be for me to study for it. So the plan was that I was going to finish my education while staying in the ashram in America. It was a means to an end. It was not supposed to be any more than that.

Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, depending on your perspective) it became a lot more than that. It became one of the most transformative experiences of my life.  Without saying whether it was positive or negative, I will just say that the experiences that I went through in this setting had the biggest change in my person. I'm sure it didn't help that I was a young teenager. My foundation was just building. My identity was just forming. When I walked out of the ashram a few years later, I had changed so much, my parents and siblings didn't know who I was anymore.

As if it wasn't bad enough that I was in America. I was also in an ashram. An ashram secluded from society. Secluded from television. Secluded from newspapers. I would find out about many of the world events that happened in the world only after I came out of the ashram after a few years. Meanwhile, what happened in the ashram, stayed in the ashram.

Believe it or not, I too am very skeptical about the existence of God. I am no blind believer. If you have seen my writing in sajha you will know that I have an analytical mind. I will not accept anything unless I have analyzed it. But the problem is that I can give no other explanation to the powerful experiences that I experienced while in the ashram by any other language than to call it spirituality. And I cannot attribute that spiritual experience to any other 'thing' than God.

Seriously, I have tried. I have tried to logically figure out other alternatives and explanations for the source of my powerful experiences. Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately, depending on your perspective), I have not been able to find other explanation. So in the absence of any other explanation, I attribute my experiences to spirituality and consequently to God.

If any of you will help me to find an alternative explanation, I would be grateful because it would free me from my beliefs. But first listen to the nature of the powerful experiences I have gone through and judge for yourself.

Can any of you relate to what I am saying? Or have I lost you?

Mero_desh, I know that you can relate to my words because you have gone through the kind of experiences that I have gone through to a certain extent. But in some ways, in terms of intensity, I would say that my experiences are more intense than yours. Of course it is hard to compare what a person feels in their own heart. I am simply trying to put my experiences in context with other people's.

You explain your experience as an absence of worry and negativity. My experience was not simply a cessation of negativity and worry, but rather an overwhelming experience of emotional ecstasy, amongst other things. I hope I can capture what I went through in words, but it will be quite challenging. And no, like you explained also, I was not taking any drugs or hallucinating. There was a co-relation between the activities and spiritual rituals I was practicing and the emotion that I was experiencing.

To tell you the truth, if someone else were to write the words that I have written above, and if I had not gone through what I did, I would blow them off as bakwas. I would roll my eyes at the BS of that person's words. But unfortunately/fortunately it is I who have gone through that experience. And I cannot lie to myself about the truth about my experience just to be popular with others. This has been a very painful experience. And generally I avoid talking about this subject because I no how unpopular it is to talk about these mystical experiences in a world where cold rationality is only discussed in clinical scientific terms with no tolerance for this 'mumbo-jumbo nonsense.'

But what can I do? I cannot lie to myself to make everyone else happy, can I? I suppose I can. But I have chosen not to. Instead, I have chosen to be queit.

Please tell me if anyone can relate to my experiences and I will tell you more.

sun is god moon is god but what really is god in hinduism then? hindu scriptures indicate that the SUN is a living creature....then why doesn't he fkin answer our prayers? why doesn't he relay the message to a higher authority? maybe his elder gods like brahma bishnu and maheshwor?? why do we have so many people suffering and dying with famine? why do we have cancer victims and or other diseased individuals screaming in pain? why does he let molestation and rape continue to happen? why the FK did he create a flawed being that is cruel to each other and they don't do shit about it? FK  your GOD turning a blind eye...there is no GOD ....if God is supposedly real then they should have protected and given people who believe in him better life.

The mind of man plays games with himself.

Those people who believe in God put a substantial amount of faith on the existence of life. According to them the breath of life is provided by god. It does seem glamorous to feel like each one of us were presented with life by God.

But the glamor fails to be glamorous when we do a paradigm shift and focus on minature living things. There are millions and billions of single cellular living things and other microscopic living things whose 'life force' is not that glamorous and you would pause to think how busy this god would be to be breathing life into these billions of microscopic and other minute life forms that germinated on earth every second!

After human beings discovered and invented complex language, there was a constant need to discover new things so they had to invent God to explain the creation. In addition, human beings ego became inflated as the supreme specy on planet earth.

The side effect of language and the ability to communicate became the overly inflated human ego.

Ego makes the man feel more important than others.

In discovering one's own ego, a person can experience many important discoveries of oneself. One important discovery is that of the Supreme Ego which classifies oneself as the chosen one. Small things add up to develop this Supreme Ego. When everything you do goes right. You start feeling infallible. You start feeling like you have been specially favored by God.

Everyone wants to feel important and part of the bigger picture. In desiring this importance, one's own psychosomatic transformation occurs whereby one attributes general incidents to be more glamorous and ego fulfilling series of events commandeered by a divine objective.

You can see this kind of psychosomatic desire when you go watch sports or gambling events. When outcomes are governed by luck, the participants feel as if their divine connection lets them change the outcome due to their special Supre Ego.

The brain is a very powerful combination of synapses capable of running hundreds of parallel processes and it can come up with hallucinations and imaginary events that are out of this world. One important factor to support this is the DREAM. A dream opens up a lot of doors to things impossible in reality. So when someone enters a highly meditative state and expresses feelings of euphoria and or other feelings then it may so be that they have mastered or discovered a way to enter the sleep state where the DREAM is sort of governed by their own personal desire of achieving such a state.

I love your comment. ..Its very thoughtful. ...I find myself in a similar dilemma as you explained in ur post. I myself have experienced Jesus in my life. I know Him to be true. He is as real to me as sun and the moon. The day i invited Him inside my heart was the day when i was born again.He has completely changed my life around. I am a whole new being. But when i try to talk to people about Him i just end up looking like a fool . i get so confused as to why people don't wanna listen . and why is there so much haterated around. I figured its not upto me to convince people as to who God really is its really upto them. People have to be ready to listen first. And God prepares each in a unique way until they are ready to hear Him nothing can convince them if.they are not ready yet. Its funny how people think that they are doing some kind of favor to God by trying to know who he is . Its not for Him its for us. Humanbeing simply needs God. cause we are created in His image.Without Him life is empty. There will always be that void in you that one might try to fill with money love or whatever but that void is only filled by one true God... In time everyone would know and everyone will have to make a choice. Mean while its important to have an open mind... and to explore and to reason with each other... and most importantly to love .. cause love is the greatest commandment of all.. regardless of what religion.. God knows our heart, If our conscience is clear before him thats the most important thing.

" Humanbeing simply needs God" ...i beg to differ, i can do everything that you do plus more without GOD figure being there....the problem with your statement is you are trying to assert your blind faith on to me by saying EVERYONE needs god which is simply not TRUE. Why do we need god ???? Mozarella what happens if i don't believe in GOD? will god punish me and send me to hell? isn't that what your christian belief says about people who do not accept jesus christ?

 @ mazarella 
    what drug are you taking. (Jesus juice ???). You must be joking with me.
     Also, why do you keep refering to god as "him" ??   If there is some "so called god" it  couldn't possiblly be a man. 
  

 Mazzarella,

How have you experienced God in your life? and how do you know him to be true? and how has he changed your life?

Im listening.

Homey Ji,

please share your experiences further. Many of us would love to hear stories of actual experiences such as yours.

I think that sajha is the wrong place for these discussions. People here are not civilized, open-minded enough or respectful enough to have discussions about experiences that take place beyond the narrow confines of their reality.

You don't have to agree with everything or anything that someone is saying. But at least just listen and let people finish their story before interrupting.

Mero desh. I agree with you. There are many of us who want to hear. I wish there was a better forum for discussions like this. Do you have any suggestions of a different place where Nepalese go to talk about topics like this?

Sajha is clearly not the place.

The problem is that not enough people raise their voice to have discussions like this in a civilized way here. And so only the rowdy noise is the only thing that is heard. Maybe that is why us Nepalese cannot advance our own life or our nations.

Our politicians are a reflection of the mentallity of the people. And the nation is a reflection of the mentallity of the politicians. So next time any of us raise our tongue to criticise Nepal or Nepali politicians, let us first go and look in the mirror at our own faces. 

When we can only act rowdy like un-educated YCL members, even in sajha, then what hope is there for the nation? 

Maybe there is some truth to it when Indians say that Nepalese will never evolve in mentallity beyond being kanchas, kanchis, bahudurs and prostitutes. 

Is it any wonder we can't write a national consitution? We don't even know how to listen to a point of view that is different from our own without feeling threatened and needing to shut the other person up before they have completed their sentence. 
 

Mero_desh:

I want you to be able to relate to what I am saying. Can you or anyone answer any of these questions:
The more of these questions you can answer, the better I will be able to explain:

What is the closest any of you have come to experiencing life in an ashram? Have you ever lived in Osho's ashram in Nagargun?

Have you ever visited any ashrams in India?
Have you ever had a guru? Do you know the deadly politics that takes place in a temple or in religious institutions?
 
Are you familiar with any gurus like Kripalu Maharaj, Ram Dev, or anyone like that?
 

 Homeyji,

Besides a few quotes from Osho and few yoga moves from Ramdev, I am not familiar with the gurus nor ashrams. So go ahead and elaborate as much as you like.