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 लिम्बू कि याक्थुङ्?

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Posted on 09-22-12 5:18 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
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लिम्बू कि याक्थुङ्?

आफ्नो ऐतिहासिकता तथा भाषा–संस्कृति विपरीत र अर्को समुदाय तथा बाह्यजगतले हेयभावले राखेको नामका आधारमा जातीय प्रदेशको माग गर्नु आफैंमा सोचनीय कुरा छ।

डा. रमेशकुमार ढुंगेल

हिजोआज ‘लिम्बू’ नामले चिनिने समुदाय अनेकन् सांस्कृतिक परम्परा बोकेका नेपालका ११४ भन्दा बढी जातीय समुदायमध्ये एक हो। काठमाडौं उपत्यकाका आदिम किराँत र सुदूर कोशी–मेचीपारका किराँत (लिम्बू, लेप्चा) को वंशगत तथा ऐतिहासिक सम्बन्धबारे आनुवंशिक अध्ययन नभए पनि ‘लिम्बू’ हरू नेपाल देशको प्राचीनतम जातिमध्ये एउटा भएको प्रमाणहरू छन्। ‘लिम्बू’ वा ‘लिंवू’ नाम भने यस समुदायको इतिहास जति पुरानो छैन। उनीहरूकै बोली वा भाषा र सिरिजङ्गा (खास नाम रुपिहाङ् राय) का लेखोटहरूमा समेत ‘लिम्बू’ शब्द भेटिंदैन। यो नाम भोट वा भोटमूलको ‘लिङ्’ र ‘पो’ वा ‘वो’ (तिब्बती लेखाइमा ‘लिङ्स–पो’ वा ‘लिङ्स–वो’) शब्दको अपभ्रंश हुनु यसको सारभूत ऐतिहासिक कारण देखिन्छ।

तिब्बती वा भोट भाषामा ‘लिङ्’ र ‘पो’ वा ‘वो’ शब्द (तिब्बती लेखाइमा ‘लिङ्स–पो’ वा लिङ्स–वो’ ) को अर्थ ‘टाढिएको, सीमान्त क्षेत्र वा अनकन्टार जंगल इलाकामा शिकारी भई पसेर हराएको’ वा ‘मूल सभ्यता, धर्मसंस्कृति, परम्परा भन्दा बाहिर पुगेको’ अर्थात् सभ्यता नभएको आदि हुन्छ। यो जातिलाई सबैभन्दा पहिले भोट वा भोट मूलका लामा र शासकहरूले ‘आफूभन्दा कमसल, असभ्य वा दूरइलाका–कुनावासी’ को रूपमा ‘लिङ्’ र ‘पो’ वा ‘वो’ भन्न थालेको देखिन्छ। भोट र सिक्किमतर्फका लामा र भोट मूलका शासकहरूका दृष्टिमा यो शब्दको प्रयोग खासगरी राजनीतिक र सांस्कृतिक प्रभुत्ववाद (कल्चरल हेजेमोनिज्म) का दृष्टिकोणबाट निकै अर्थपूर्ण पनि छ। यस विषयमा अलिक विस्तारपूर्वक बुझन लिम्बूहरूको प्राचीनता र ऐतिहासिक बसोबास क्षेत्रको चर्चा आवश्यक छ।

‘लिम्बू’ (याक्थुङ्) नालीबेली
‘लिम्बू’ समुदायको बसोबासको ऐतिहासिक स्थल वर्तमान नेपालको पहाडमा अरुण भन्दा पूर्व र तराईमा सप्तकोशीदेखि मेची नदीसम्मको भूभाग हो। ‘लिम्बू’ बसोबास क्षेत्र समय–समयमा संकुचन र विस्तार भएको ऐतिहासिक प्रमाणहरू छन्। आधुनिक नेपाल निर्माण भन्दा पहिले उत्तरमा हिमालय पर्वत र दक्षिणमा हालको भारतको जलालगढ (पूर्णिया) सम्मका भूभागमा ‘लिम्बू’ को राजनीतिक अधिकार थियो। यत्रो भूभाग भए पनि सिक्किमले शक्ति विस्तार गर्दा कहिलेकाहीं ‘लिम्बू’ शासकका पहाड र तराई दुवैतर्फका क्षेत्रहरू पूर्ण अधिकारमा त कहिले शिर्तो बुझ्ाउने करद (कर) प्रदेशमा परिणत हुन्थे। कहिलेकाहीं चाहिं ‘लिम्बू’ भूभाग आंशिक रूपमा खण्डित पनि हुन्थ्यो।

सिक्किमका भोटे शासकको उग्र थिचोमिचोबाट बच्न लिम्बू शासक र जनताले कहिलेकाहीं पश्चिमका सेन राजाहरूसँग सहयोग माग्थे। यसक्रममा सेन राजाहरूलाई मूल शासक स्वीकारेर विजयपुर, चौदण्डी जस्ता राई–लिम्बू क्षेत्रको शासन व्यवस्था चल्ने–चलाउने प्रबन्ध गरिएका ऐतिहासिक प्रमाण पाइएका छन्। ‘लिम्बू’हरू स्थानीय शासक हुँदाको अवस्थामा र सिक्किमका भोटे शासकको थिचोमिचोबाट जोगिन मकवानी सेनहरूलाई आमन्त्रण गरेपछि समेत यस प्रदेश वा राज्यको नाम ‘लिम्बू इलाका’ ‘लिम्बूवान’ आदि नभई विजयपुर थियो। यसै क्षेत्रका विजयनारायण राय नामक किराँत (लिम्बू) शासककै नामबाट विजयपुरको नाम रहेको ऐतिहासिक मान्यता छ।

विजयपुर राज्यको पहाडतर्फ ‘लिम्बू’ का १० स्थानीय नायक (हाङ्) को प्रशासन चल्थ्यो भने तराईतर्फ सोझै मूल शासक वा तिनका मुख्य काजी (मुख्य मन्त्री) अन्तर्गत राज्य व्यवस्था मिलाइएको थियो। सेनहरूलाई राजाको रूपमा आमन्त्रण गरेर मूल गद्दीमा राखिएपछि भने विजयपुर दरबारमा एक जना राय (लिम्बू) र एक जना खसका गरी दुई जना मुख्यमन्त्री राख्ने चलन चल्यो। यस्तो व्यवस्थाको उद्देश्य स्थानीय परम्परालाई मान्यता दिंदै सिक्किमको अतिक्रमणलाई रोक्ने क्रममा त्यस क्षेत्रमा पुर्‍याइएका खस र मगर समुदायको व्यवस्थापन गर्नु पनि थियो। यसो गर्दा बाह्य आक्रमणबाट रक्षासँगै विजयपुरको आन्तरिक राज्यव्यवस्था पनि राम्रोसँग चल्थ्यो।

आफ्नो भाषामा ‘लिम्बू’ हरूको जातीय नाम वा पहिचान ‘याक्थुङ्’ वा ‘याक्थुङ्वा’ हो। सिक्किम मूल थलो भएका किराँत परिवारका लेप्चाहरूले ‘याक्थुङ्’ वा ‘याक्थुङ्वा’ हरूलाई सम्मानपूर्वक ‘चोङ्’ वा ‘चोङ्वा’ भनेर सम्बोधन गर्दथे, अझ्ै गर्दछन्। किराँतको प्राचीनतम चोङ्लिपि, किराँत लिपि, भाषा र साहित्यका विद्वान् सिरिजङ्गाको आदरार्थी नाम, विशेषण ‘सिरि चोङ्वा’ लेप्चाहरूले लिम्बूलाई सम्बोधन गर्ने वा चिनाउँने क्रममा बनेकोमा शंका गरिरहनुपर्दैन। यसबाट याक्थुङ् मुन्धुम (मुन्थुङ्), याक्थुङ् सेमा मुन्थुङ् तथा याक्थुङ्हाङ् जस्ता प्राचीन र हिजोआज प्रचलित ‘याक्थुङ्–चुम्लुङ्’ जस्ता नाम ‘लिम्बू’ लाई जनाउने स्थानीय सम्मानका बोली हुन् भनेर सहजै बुझ्िन्छ। याक्थुङ् शासक कूलका विद्वान रुपिहाङ् रायको अत्यन्त सम्मानित उपनाम ‘सिरिजङ्गा’ को प्रसंग पनि यहाँ उल्लेख्य छ। यी रुपिहाङ्लाई ‘लिम्बू’ वा ‘लिम्बूवान’ का नभनी लिम्बूलाई चिनाउने लेप्चा नाम ‘चोङ्’ र हिन्दू तथा बौद्ध आदर्शको आदरार्थी ‘श्री’ समेत जोडेर ‘श्री चोङ्वा’ भनियो। यो नाम पछि अपभ्रंश हुँदै ‘श्री जोङ्वा’ र ‘सिरिजङ्गा’ हुनपुग्यो। याक्थुङ् (लिम्बू) समुदायको इतिहासमा यो एउटा बुझनैपर्ने रोचक तथ्य हो।

‘लिम्बू’ नाम स्थानीय याक्थुङ् समुदायलाई भोट मूलका शासक र लामाहरूले हेयभावले राखेको नामबाट आएको इतिहासले देखाए पनि ज्ञानको अभावका कारण सेन, गोर्खाली शासक, बेलायती विद्वान् ब्रायन हज्सन्, उनका अनुसन्धान सहयोगी र पछि बाह्यजगतले समेत ‘याक्थुङ्’ वा ‘याक्थुङ्वा’ नभनी ‘लिम्बू’ नै प्रयोग गरे। पृथ्वीनारायण शाह र उनका उत्तराधिकारी तथा प्रशासकहरूले व्यावहारिक सम्बोधनमा ‘लिम्बू’ जाति र तिनको ऐतिहासिक बसोबास क्षेत्रलाई उर्दू–पर्सियन शब्दको ‘आना’ जोडेर ‘लिम्बूआना’ भने, जुन अहिले ‘लिम्बूवान’ भएको छ। जबकि, लन्डनको ब्रिटिश लाइब्रेरीमा सुरक्षित १७० देखि झ्ण्डै ३०० वर्षअघिसम्म सिरिजङ्गा लिपिमा लेखिएका दर्जनौं स्रोतमा कतै पनि ‘लिम्बू’ शब्द भेटिन्न।

याक्थुङ्वाहरूलाई आफ्नोतर्फ मिलाउने क्रममा पृथ्वीनारायण शाहले जारी गरेका औपचारिक आदेश र प्रतिज्ञापत्रहरूमा ‘लिम्बू’ शब्द प्रयोग गर्दा उनीहरूको मूल नामबारे जानकारी नभएको वा सिक्किमे तथा भोटतर्फका लामा र अधिकारी वर्गले चलाएको हेयको शब्द नै चलाउन चाहेको बुझ्िन्छ। उनका उत्तराधिकारीहरूले पनि अज्ञानतावश ‘लिम्बू’ नै चलाए। याक्थुङ्हरूको ऐतिहासिक थलोलाई आधिकारिक रूपमा ‘पल्लो किराँत’, ‘विजयपुर राज्य’, ‘मोरङ इलाका’, ‘१७ थुम्’, ‘तेह्र थुम’, ‘पूर्व ६ नम्बर चैनपुर’, ‘चैनपुर अमाल इलाका’, ‘पाँच खपन’, ‘दश मझ्िया’, ‘सुखिम चैनपुर’ जस्ता क्षेत्रीय प्रशासनिक नाम दिइएका दस्तावेजहरू पनि पाइन्छ। ‘पल्लो किराँत’ नाम पञ्चायतकालसम्म नै प्रचलित थियो। ऐतिहासिक प्रशासनिक हिसाबले पल्लो किराँतका खाम्पालुङ् इशलिम्बा, सिङ्लेला जस्ता क्षेत्रीय पर्वत शृङ्खलाका नाम पनि उत्तिकै उल्लेख्य छन्।

पृथ्वीनारायण शाहको समयमा सल्यानी र जाजरकोटे राजाहरूलाई काठमाडौंबाट पठाइएका लालमोहरहरूमा पल्लो किराँतको पहाडी इलाकालाई ‘पूर्वको सुखिम चैनपुर’ भनिएको छ। ‘लिम्बू’ शब्द स्थानीय (नेटिभ) नभएको सन्दर्भमा ‘लिम्बू’ प्रशासनिक नाम नराखिनु स्वाभाविकै पनि हो। तर, सिक्किमका भोट मूलका शासकका साथै कालान्तरमा तिब्बततर्फबाट झ्रेका गोवा आदि स्थानीय प्रशासक र लामाहरूले हेयभावमा ‘लिङ्वो’ वा ‘लिङ्वु’ नै भन्दा पछि खस, मगर आदि समुदायले पनि यथार्थ नबुझ्ी अनौपचारिक रूपमा ‘लिंवू’ नै भन्ने गरे। यसरी ‘लिम्बू’ स्थानीय याक्थुङ्वाहरूलाई याक्थुङ्इतरका समुदायले भ्रमवश दिएको एउटा समुदायगत नाम हुनपुग्यो। यस सन्दर्भमा एउटा चाखलाग्दो तथ्य के छ भने, उत्तरी संखुवासभाको हटिया गाविस नजिकै स्याक्सिलामा करीब २७ घरधुरीको वस्तीमा ‘सिरजुङ्’ नामले चिनिने र आफूलाई ‘लिङ्वो’ भनेर चिनाउने समुदाय अहिले पनि छ। भोट मूल अन्तर्गत परेको र भाषा आदिले पनि भोट मूलमै समेटिएको यो समुदाय आफूहरू ‘सिरजुङ् लिङ्वु’ भएको र आफ्ना पुर्खा हाङ् राजाको तर्फबाट कर उठ्तीका निम्ति आएर यतै बसोबास गरेको सुनाउँछन्। आफूलाई हाङ् राजाका कर अधिकारीको सन्तान भन्ने ‘सिरजुङ् लिङ्वो’हरू पनि याक्थुङ् वा लिम्बूहरूसँगै सम्बन्धित भएको बुझिन्छ।

याक्थुङ्हरूको प्राचीन इतिहाससम्म नपुग्ने ‘लिम्बू’ नाम भोट मूलका सिक्किमे शासक र लामाहरूले आक्रमण–अतिक्रमण, लेनदेन–व्यापार वा अरूखाले सम्पर्कका क्रममा ‘लिङ्वु’ वा ‘लिंवू’ भनेबाटै आएको हो। इतिहासमा ‘लिंवू’ र सिक्किम–भोटबाट ओर्लिएका भोट मूलका समुदायबीच सिमाना र क्षेत्रीय प्रभुत्वका विषयमा धेरै पटक ठूला–साना झ्डप भएका थिए। सिक्किमका लामाको पेलाइ र उक्साहटमा त्यहाँका भोटे शासकले गराएको महात्मा सिरिजङ्गाको हत्या राजनीतिक र सांस्कृतिक प्रभुत्ववादको एउटा दुर्दान्त घटना हो। हेयभावको सम्बोधन र याक्थुङ् विद्वानको हत्या एकअर्कोसँग असम्बन्धित घटना थियो भनेर मान्न सकिंदैन।

गोर्खालीसँग सम्झौता र काङ्सो रे
‘लिम्बू’ अर्थात् याक्थुङ्वाहरूले पृथ्वीनारायण शाहसँग ठिङ्रो–मुङ्रो (जेलनेल राख्ने विशेष स्थानीय शासन अधिकार) सहित आश्रित इलाकाको सम्झ्ौता गरेका थिए। माझ् किराँतलाई अनेकन् सैन्य आक्रमण र घमासान युद्धबाट अधीनस्थ गरेपछि पृथ्वीनारायणका सैन्यले पल्लो किराँत अर्थात् याक्थुङ्को ऐतिहासिक क्षेत्र चैनपुरअन्तर्गत सिङ्लेला पहाड र इलामदेखि सिक्किमसम्मका सत्र वटै थुम जित्न कुनै युद्ध गर्नु परेन। भोजपुर नजिक फालि (फालीकोट/फालिजोङ्) मा थर्पु (क्याम्प) हालेर बसेका गोर्खाली सेनानायकहरूलाई लिम्बूका १० हाङ् क्षेत्रीय नायक र तिनका प्रतिनिधिले चैनपुर किल्लामा बोलाएर पान–फूलसहित स्वागत गरेका थिए। बदलामा पृथ्वीनारायणले ‘लिम्बू’ का जहान, बालबच्चासहित उक्त क्षेत्रको पूर्ण सुरक्षाको जिम्मेवारी लिएका प्रमाण ताम्रपत्र र अन्य मोहरहरू हुन्। पृथ्वीनारायणले कुनै–कुनै लालमोहरमा ‘लिम्बू’ लाई तुतु तुम्याङ ‘याक्थुङ् हाङ्’का सन्तान पनि भनेका छन्। यसले ‘लिम्बू’ नभनी ‘याक्थुङ् शासकका सन्तान’ भनेर सम्मान गर्न खोजेको देखाउँछ।

यस सन्दर्भमा, काङ्सो नामका एक लिम्बू नायकले ‘गोर्खालीहरूसँग युद्ध गरेको’ भनेर भ्रम सिर्जना गरिएको पाइन्छ। भारतमा अंग्रेजीकरण गरेर ‘राय’ लाई ‘रे’ अनि ठाकुरलाई ‘टैगोर’ बनाए जस्तै काङ्सो हाङ् वा काङ्सो रायलाई ‘काङ्सो रे’ भनेर नामलाई नै भ्रामक बनाइएको छ। स्पि्रग् जस्ता अंग्रेज र इमानसिंह चेम्जोङ् जस्ता अंग्रेज प्रभावका अन्वेषकहरूले पद वा पदसँग सम्बन्धित थर ‘राय’ लाई ‘रे’ लेखेर प्रचार गरिदिए। यसरी याक्थुङ्का एक नायकको नाम नै ‘काङसो रे’ भएको हो। ‘राय’ राजा वा शासक वर्गसँग सम्बन्धित सम्मानजनक पद जनाउने थर हो। विजयपुरका अन्तिम मूल काजी बुद्धिकर्ण राय, रुपिहाङ् राय, बाजहाङ् राय, विजयनारायण राय आदि यसका उदाहरण हुन्। राई थर ‘राय’ बाटै आएको हो।

काजी काङ्सो राय सिक्किमे, भोटे, लेप्चा र केही याक्थुङ्वाको मोर्चाबाट वि.सं. १८४४–४५ मा काठमाडौंका फौजसँग लड्ने नायक हुन्, १८३१ मा हुँदै नभएको युद्धका लडाकू होइनन्। गोर्खाली सेनालाई अरुण पश्चिम धपाउने उद्देश्यले सिक्किमका भोटे शासकको योजनामा भएको १८४४–४५ को युद्ध चैनपुर प्रशासनिक क्षेत्रको सिद्धिपुर र सिद्धपोखरी भेकमा भएको थियो। त्यस युद्धमा ‘नीति’ भनेर चिनिने केही याक्थुङ्वा अर्थात् लिम्बूहरू अवश्य संलग्न थिए। स्थानीय प्रशासकको मान्यता पाएका पहिलेका कतिपय याक्थुङ् हाङ्का सन्तान (संपृति/समरीति) भने गोर्खाली पक्षमा थिए। वि.सं. १९१२ को नेपाल–भोट युद्ध र विजयपुर–मोरङ गडबडीमा समेत सिक्किम र अंग्रेज विरुद्ध गोर्खाली पक्षबाट वीरतापूर्वक लडेको रीझ् (उपहार, बक्सिस्) वापत उनीहरूलाई लालमोहरमार्फत १९०९ को मुलुकी ऐनका केही भाग संशोधन गरेर ‘मासिने मतवाली’ बाट ‘नमासिने मतवाली’ मा चढाइयो, १९१७ मा। यो लालमोहरले संपृति/समरीति लिम्बूहरूलाई विशेष मान्यता दिने परम्परालाई आधिकारिकता दिएको देखिन्छ। इतिहासलाई किम्बदन्तीसँग मिसमास र अपव्याख्या गर्ने प्रवृत्ति हावी हुनु अर्कै कुरा हो।

‘नमासिने मतवाली’ भएपछि संपृति/समरीति लिम्बूहरूले नेपालको राष्ट्रिय सेनामा जम्दार, हवल्दार, लप्टन जस्ता त्यसबेला जनसाधारणले नपाउने पद पाए। बेलायती दूत ब्रायन हज्सन्लाई लिम्बू–लेप्चा भाषा, लिपि र सभ्यताको अध्ययनमा सहयोग गर्ने हवल्दार रणध्वज सुब्बा, कप्तान हंसवाज सुब्बा र जोभानसिं फागोहरू उन्नाइसौं शताब्दीमा नेपालको राष्ट्रिय सेनाका महत्वपूर्ण याक्थुङ् (लिम्बू) हरू हुन्। जोभानसिंह फागोको परिचयमा हज्सनले कोष्ठ भित्र मात्र ‘लिम्बू’ लेखेका छन्, जुन निकै अर्थपूर्ण कुरा हो।

अन्त्यमा, नेपालमा हिजोआज संघीय संरचनाको प्रसंगमा चलाउने गरिएका जातिगत समुदायका नाममध्ये ‘मंग्वर’ वा ‘मगरात’ लाई केही बढी ऐतिहासिक मान्न सकिए पनि ‘लिम्बू’ वा ‘लिम्बूवान’ याक्थुङ् (लिम्बू) हरूको भाषा र ऐतिहासिक–प्रशासनिक निरन्तरताको हिसाबले धेरै कमजोर छ। प्राचीनता, निरन्तरता र याक्थुङ् (लिम्बू) हरूको भाषिक व्युत्पत्तिका हिसाबले यो नामलाई ऐतिहासिक भनेर व्याख्या गर्न सकिने स्थिति छैन। अर्कोतर्फ याक्थुङ्वा (लिम्बू) र अरुण–बरुण नदी शृङ्खलाका पर्वत क्षेत्रमा उनीहरूसँग युगौंयुगदेखि बसोबास गरेका अरू समुदायलाई छुट्याएर प्रदेशको खाका बनाउने एउटा पनि ऐतिहासिक आधार पाईंदैन। न त याक्थुङ् लिम्बूहरूले चैनपुर भेकमा स्थापना गरेका ऐतिहासिक–सांस्कृतिक सम्पदालाई अरुण पश्चिम बन्ने भनिएको प्रदेशमा सार्न नै मिल्छ। बरु किराँत लिपि र भाषा–साहित्यका जनक सिरिजङ्गाको नामलाई सांकेतिक सापेक्षताका आधारमा कोशी जस्ता प्राकृतिक नामको साथमा पहिचानमुखी प्रदेशको साझा नाम बनाउन सकिन्छ।

जातीय पहिचानका आवाज र संघीय खाका निर्माणको व्यावहारिक मिलनबिन्दुको खोजी संयमतापूर्वक इतिहास बुझेर मात्र गर्न सकिन्छ। उत्पत्ति र इतिहास विपरीत अनि अर्को समुदाय र बाह्यजगतले हेयभावले राखेको नामबाट जातीय समुदायगत पहिचानयुक्त संघीय प्रदेशको माग गर्दा पहिचानको अर्थमा अनर्थ भएर भावी पिंढीलाई समेत अप्ठेरो अनुभूति हुनसक्छ। जस्तो, अन्य समुदायले ब्राह्मणलाई उडाउनुपर्दा ‘काठा’ भन्छन्। अब ‘काठा’ प्रदेशको माग गर्नु ऐतिहासिक पहिचानको आधारमा स्वाभिमानपूर्ण होला त ब्राह्मण समाजलाई?

नेपालको जातीय विविधताको साङ्गोपाङ्ग र प्रामाणिक इतिहास नहुँदा मुलुकमा जारी संघीयताको बहस समाधान भन्दा समस्याको रूपमा चर्किएको छ। जातीय आधारमा प्रदेशहरूको नामकरण गर्नुपर्छ वा गर्नुहुँदैन भन्ने बहसमा नेपालका जाति र समुदायको विकासक्रमको इतिहास भने ओझ्ेलमा परेको छ। यसबारे अध्ययन–अनुसन्धानमूलक स्रोत सामग्रीहरूको खोजीनिती गरिएकै छैन। नेपालका जातीय समुदायहरूको जरो पहिल्याउने स्रोत अध्ययनका साथै प्रामाणिक इतिहास नकेलाई जातिगत समुदायका पहिचानसँग सम्बन्धित विषयलाई नागरिक, राजनीतिक तथा सरकारी तहको संरचना बनाउन खोज्नु संघीयताको कमजोर थालनी हो।

अनेकन् सामाजिक–सांस्कृतिक विविधता बोकेका नेपालका जातीय समुदायका प्राचीनता, ऐतिहासिकता, भेद–विभेदका तथ्य, देश निर्माणमा उनीहरूको देन र वर्तमानमा तिनको भूमिका तथा स्थान जस्ता आधारभूत विषयमा कुनै अध्ययन भएको छैन। यस्ता अध्ययन–अनुसन्धान बेगर जातीय–क्षेत्रीय संघीय एकाई निर्माणका साथ देशको पुनर्संरचना गर्ने हेतुले अगाडि बढ्न खोज्दा मुलुकको केन्द्रीय राजनीति नै जडवत् बन्न पुगेको छ। र, सामेलीपनको असल नियतबाट अभिप्रेरित अन्तरिम संविधानमा उल्लिखित कतिपय प्रावधानहरू समेत व्यवहारमा उतार्न सकिएको छैन। जुन, निसन्देह जातीय प्रदेशको दुस्साहसपूर्ण कार्यान्वयनकै परिणामको रूपमा आएको हो। यो अवस्थामा, पहिले नभएका वा नगरिएका सामाजिक, सांस्कृतिक, ऐतिहासिक र राजनीतिक चिन्तनले महत्व पाउनुपर्छ।

यही मेसोमा इतिहासका अध्येता तथा अध्यापक डा. रमेशकुमार ढुंगेलले नेपालका केही प्रमुख जातिहरूका ऐतिहासिक र वर्तमान स्थितिको अन्वेषण गरिरहेका छन्। पहिलो चरणमा अहिलेसम्म प्रदेशको नामांकनको सन्दर्भमा उठेका जातिगत समुदाय र अन्ततोगत्वा सिंगो नेपालको जातीय संस्कृति र इतिहाससँग सम्बन्धित पहिचान समेटेर नेपालको जातिगत समुदायको इतिहास सम्बन्धी स्रोतग्रन्थ तयार पार्ने अनुसन्धानमा छन्, डा. ढुंगेल। उनको यो जिम्मेवार बौद्धिक कर्मले ग्रन्थको रूप लिन अवश्य पनि समय लाग्छ। तर, नेपाली समाजका लागि उनका अनुसन्धानमूलक सूचनाहरू अहिले पनि त्यति नै महत्वपूर्ण छन्, जति पछि हुनेछन्। त्यसका लागि डा. ढुंगेलका अनुसन्धानका सारांशहरूलाई फुटकर लेखको रूपमा प्रकाशित गर्दै जाने अनुमति हिमाल ले लिएको छ। यसको थालनी पूर्वी नेपालका ‘लिम्बू’ समुदाय र ’लिम्बूवान’ नामबाट गरिएको छ, क्रमशः पश्चिम लाग्ने मनसुवाका साथ।
– सम्पादक


 

 
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Posted on 09-23-12 12:17 PM     [Snapshot: 171]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Lol.Again a propoganda article by...yes eff me...a bahun.I was about to refute most of his claims,but who is listening.Just a simple facts here:

1) Limbu translates to "archer" or "bearer of bow and arrow".Bow and arrow are very sacred to the Limbus.

2)Limbus are known as "Tsong" in Sikkim.Fact.But calling the 9th century limbu king Sirijunga otherwise is like saying Paresh Rawal is Bhim Rawal ko kaka.

3)Limbus are Yakthung people.Limbu males are callled Yakthugba and females Yakthungma.

4)Gurkha-Limbuwan war is a FACT.

5)Gurkha-Limbuwan treaty is a FACT.

6)Sikkim did at one point try to culturally dominate/influence Limbuwan.But as you see,it didn't happen.Limbus remained true to their culture and did not convert to buddhism.

7)Subba(Limbu) was a title bought like Rana/Shah(Thakuri)






 
Posted on 09-23-12 6:18 PM     [Snapshot: 295]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Last edited: 23-Sep-12 06:34 PM

 
Posted on 09-23-12 6:38 PM     [Snapshot: 317]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Dakku,


LOL from me too

You are saying baauns are writing one sided history and would like to refute ( no problem for me) but what about your side of the history? Is there any possibility of it being one sided too? Or your side of the coin is pure and truth only?
I am neither a student of history, nor that Dhungel guy is related to me. 
But I tried to give a acid test to claims from both side. Please read.But after reading all these dont tell me that British,Gurkhas and Sikkimeli all  conspired against Limbuwana.

‘In May 1774, they again fought at another confluence of Arun River.  The Gurkha officer, Raghu Rana and Limboo officer Khangsore fought brilliantly.  Raghu Rana was killed.  Both the parties lost heavy casualties.  

http://www.darjeelingtimes.com/columns/himalayan-telescope/2531-gorkhakirat-vis-a-vis-sikkim-conflict-conquest-and-integration.html

written not by Baaun but by Shrestha

If you read this you will see he has mentioned Raghu Rana a gorkha officer and and Limboo officer Khangsore from Sikkim

To prove he was fighting on behalf of Sikkim is proven by

The Gurkha inroads were beaten back seventeen times. A peace treaty with Nepal was signed in 1775, and Gurkhas promised to abstain from further attacks and collaboration with Bhutanese.

http://www.sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm

This was war between Sikkim and Nepal not between Limbuwana and Nepal BECAUSE

Gyurmed Namgyal succeeded his father Chador. Consequently upon a Mongol (Dzungar) invasion on Tibet to persecute Nyingma sect, the Mindoling Abbot's sister. In his times the people were forced to work on the fortification of Rabdentse in the fear of Gurkhas and Bhutanese raids. Many Tsongs who were not prepared to yield to forced labour fled to Limbuana, which became a rebel district and broke away from Sikkim even earlier to Gurkha expansion. A boundary dispute with Bhutan also arose. The Magar Chieftain Tashi Bidur also revolted, though he was subdued. Limbuana was, however, lost to Nepal.Gyurmed had no issue but while on his death bed at the age of 26 (1733) gave out that a nun in Sanga Choling was carrying his child. But some people do not believe it. It is said, he was impotent and generally shunned his wife.

http://www.sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm

Not written by Bahun but it in the History of Sikkim

This part of the History of the Sikkim proves that there were Limbus both in Nepal and Sikkim. They  were in Nepalese army as well as in Sikkimi army. The Nepal Sikkim war was led by Limboo officer Khangsore

If Limboos were called” tsong” in Sikkim, then this paragraph also suggests that “tsongs” (Limboos) were not treated equally in Sikkim they had to do forced labour.

On the other hand it also suggests the existence of Limbuwnana at that time. This point gives a hint that may be tsong and Limboos are two different things because if Limbuwna is for Limboo then the word “limboo” already existed.

Then who are tsong??

Tsong are the people who fled Sikkim for not wanting to yield to forced labour and Limbuwana is a geographical region not a Limbu” Rajya.

Definitely Limboos are not tsong. Otherwise the Historian (not Nepali and not Baaun) should have written “Limboos who were not yielding to forced labour fled to Limbuwana”. Instaed History of Sikkim states that”Tsong” fled to Limbuwana .

Like “Bharat Barsa” is a geographical region not a country. Like “Indian subcontinent “  does not mean India.

Also If there was existence of Limbuwana as a separate state/country why should Sikkim be afraid of Gorkha raids??  Limbuwnana seperates “Gurkha  Rajya”  and Sikkim. Gorkhas must travel across Limbuwana to raid Sikkim isn’t it? And according history there was enemty between Gorkha and Limboowana isn’t it?

That means Gorkhas were travelling through Limbuwana to Raid Sikkim. This indicates that Limbuwana is not a name of a country related to certain Race/Jaat.  It is a geographical region. People who lived in Limboowana are called Limboo not the other way.

It’s like people living in Nepal are called Nepali, not the Nepal is named after a Jaat /race “Nepal”

Furthermore,

While expanding their colony British have mentioned every small principality, how they were conquered or what was their relation with them. But in the history of British India they have never mentioned a coun try/principality called Limbuwana. This also suggests that Limbuwana is a geographical region not a country which was partially/full control of different countries in different time of the history.

What can also be concluded that “tsong” fled to Limbuwana and later became Limbu (people of Limbuwana). If this is true then baaun/chhetri  newar living in Limbuwna are Limbus. Word Limbuwana is not related to any particular Jaat/thar/cast  Limbu.

Daaku please read

“which became a rebel district and broke away from Sikkim even earlier to Gurkha expansion.”

This history written not by Nepali not by Baaun suggest that lots of “tsongs” fled Sikkim center and  fled to limbooana So the geographical region “Limbooana”. Because tsong were forced to do forced labour they hated the king of Sikkim, fled to Limbuana which was still a part of Sikkim and later broke from the Sikkim.

tsongs started to live in Limbuana and started to call themselves Limbu, not the Limbu gave the name Limbuwana.

In the year 1752 the Tsongs rose in arms, but were subdued and won over by tactfully by Chandzod Karwang.

Also indicated that “tsongs” were not happy with the King of Sikkim.

All these points suggest that Limbus were not called “tsong” in Sikkim. It just indicates that somehow, for some reason “tsong” were treated differently in Sikkim. Most of them ( not all) fled to Limbuwana.

Treaty of Titalia

The treaty was conducted between British India and Sikkim. This treaty also mentions territory of Sikkim and gurkha but no mention of Limbuwana. This also indicate that there was not a country called Limbuwana

Treaty of Titalia

From Wikipedia,

The Treaty of Titalia was signed between the Chogyal (monarch) of Sikkim and the British East India Company. The treaty, which was negotiated by Captain Barre Latter in February 1817, guaranteed security of Sikkim by the British and returned Sikkimese land annexed by the Nepalese over the centuries. It followed the Anglo-Nepalese War, 1814-1816. In return, the British were given trading rights and rights of passage up to the Tibet frontier. The treaty was named afterTitalia, a place in current-day West Bengal-Bihar border. In the Gazette of Sikkim, 1894 by H.H. Risley, it was written that "by the Treaty of Titalia, British India has assumed the position of Lord's paramount of Sikkim and a title to exercise a predominant influence in that State has remained undisputed."

Treaty

TREATY, COVENANT or AGREEMENT entered into by CAPTAIN BARRE LATTER, AGENT on the part of HIS EXCELLENCY, the RIGHT HON’BLE, the EARL OF MOIRA, K.G., GOVERNOR GENERAL, etc., and by NAZIR CHAINA TENJIN and MACHA TEINBAH and LAMA DUCHIM LONGADOO, deputies on the part of the RAJAH OF SIKKIMPUTTEE being severally authorized and duly appointed for the above purposes - 1817.

ARTICLE I: The Honourable East India Company cedes, transfers and makes over in full sovereignty to the Sikkimputtee Rajah, his heirs or successors, all the hilly or mountainous country situated to the eastward of the Mechi river and to the westward of the Teesta river, formerly possessed by the Rajah of Nepaul but ceded to the Honourable East India company by the treaty of peace signed at Segoulee.

ARTICLE II: The Sikkimputtee Rajah engages for himself and successors to abstain from any acts of aggression or hostility against the Goorkhas or any other State.

ARTICLE lll: That he will refer to the arbitration of the British Government any dispute or question that may arise between his subjects and those of Nepaul or any other neighbouring State and to abide by the decision of the British Government.

ARTICLE IV: He engages for himself and successors to join the British troops with the whole of his military force when employed in the Hills and in general to afford the British troops every aid and facility in his power.

ARTICLE V: That he will not permit any British subject nor the subject of any European and American state to reside within his dominions, without the permission of the English-Government.

ARTICLE VI: That he will immediately seize and deliver up any dacoits or notorious offenders that right take refuge within his territories.

ARTICLE VII: That he will not afford protection to any defaulters of revenue or other delinquents when demanded by the British Government through their accredited agents.

ARTICLE VIII: That he will afford protection to merchants and traders from the Company’s province and he engages that no duty shall be levied on the transit of merchandise beyond the established custom at the several golah or marts.

ARTICLE IX: The Honourable East India Company guarantees to the Sikkimputtee Rajah and his successors, the full and peaceable possession of the tract of hilly country specified in the First Article of the present Agreement.

ARTICLE X: This treaty shall be ratified and exchanged by the Sikkimputtee Rajah within one month from the present date and the counterpart when confirmed by His Excellency, the Right Honourable the Governor-General, shall be transmitted to the Rajah.

Done at Titalia, this tenth day of February 1817 answering the 9th of Phagoon 1873 Sumbut and to the thirteenth of Maugh 1223 Bengallie.

Sd/- Barre Latter Sd/- Moira Sd/- Nazir Chaina Tenjin Sd/- N.B. Edmonstone Sd/- Macha Teinbah Sd/- Archd. Seton Sd/- Lama Duchim Longadoo Sd/- Geo. Dowedswell

Ratified by the Governor-General in Council at Fort William, this Fifteenth day of March, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Seventeen.

Sd/- J. Adam, Acting Chief Secretary to Government.

So  Daaku, you can read your side of the History, others can write their side of the History, But what do I do?

I trust but only after verifying it. No verification means I don t trust.  History written in mythological way cannot be verified.

PS: This reply was not written to offend any one

Last edited: 23-Sep-12 07:01 PM

 
Posted on 09-23-12 6:39 PM     [Snapshot: 320]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Sorry, I was editing my posting but accidently I clicked on delete.My mistake. Reposted it
I see Nalapani posted in the mean time, but deleted it . If it was because my deletion of the posting pardon me,
 
Last edited: 23-Sep-12 07:02 PM

 
Posted on 09-23-12 7:48 PM     [Snapshot: 364]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 ढुंगेल सर को लेख प्रशंशनिय छ, एउटा खोजमूलक लेख पढ्न पाइयो, साझामा /
 
Posted on 09-23-12 8:55 PM     [Snapshot: 363]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Dharke

All the articles you post seems to have an agenda.You claim otherwise,but it ain't for "educational purpose".Since the federal state movement started gaining momentum,your activity in Sajha seems to be all about finding "articles" and posting them for "educational purposes". 

This is getting boring but what the hell eh.?

1)Sikkim is the native land of Lepchas(Rong).The three major ethnic group of Sikkim was Rong(Lepcha),Tsong(Limbu) and Lho(Bhutia).

2)The first Namgyal king ,Phuntsog Namgyal initiated a tripartite treaty of Bhutias,Lepchas and Limbus known as "Lho-Mon-Tsong-Sum".

3)The Namgyal Kings had wives from both the Lepcha and Limbu community.

4)People of Limbuwan and Sikkim were interdependent.They intermarried/traded and whatever came in between

5)Maybe a landgrab here and there or even a brief invasion(which happened on both ends),Limbuwan was NEVER ruled by Sikkimese king ,although there is a possibility that the Sikkimese king might have been an overlord over the Limbu kingdoms at the height of their power.That too is debatable.

6)Sikkim and Limbuwan were very close allies.

7)Limbuwan was never a single kingdom.Limbuwan consisted of 10 rajya and those 10 rajya collectively was called Limbuwan by the outsiders.It's geographical boundaries are not black and white.

8)People speaking the same language,practising the same culture/tradition/religion and sharing the same DNA belong to one clan.Your claim that Bahun/Chettri/Newar living in Limbuwan are Limbus is a JOKE.

9)In a feudal society,commoners being forced to do hard labour is nothing new and people fleeing the feudal lord for a safe haven is not unheard of either.Happens today too.

10)Sikkimese and Limbuwan alliance fought togather against the Gurkhas.

Damn,this is getting long.Please take your hate and slimy intention somewhere else.Tata.

P.S..Dr. Dhungel sure has balls of steel.If he were to debate with historians and anthropologist,he would be eaten alive for his false and tall claims.But he did manage to do what he intended.The poster above me just thanked the doctor for his "educational" stuff.


Last edited: 23-Sep-12 09:02 PM

 
Posted on 09-23-12 10:42 PM     [Snapshot: 429]     Reply [Subscribe]
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the literal meaning of limbu in 'yathung' language is bearer of bow, 'li' means bow, before the formation of 10 limbu and 17 thum in pallo kirat, the people revolted against their rulers who were ruthless and tyrant, and eventually defeated them and thus came up with this new name 'limbu' since the revolution was won by bow and arrow, then they subdivided the area as 10 limbu and 17 thum. they were independent of each other but remained as a unit to deal with external threats. limbu chieftains and people resisted againts gorkha invasion, the war took place, there r remians of chainpur fort, saguri fort, bijaypur durbar and many other forts where limbu still conduct prayers every year as a respect to the ancestors. after the military campaign became futile for gorkha, they offered peaceful solution of allowing limbus to practise thier cultural, religious and linguistic rights, be a rulers as they were (which was still in practise till mahendra era in the form of land rights as 'kipat') but amalgamate to nepal as a nation. tamropatra issued by prithvi narayan shah and many letters and lalmohar issued by latter rulers which is still in existnce are the evidences. among ten limbus, few didnt agree from the area of present illam and taplejung, made an alliance with sikkim and continued resisting the gorkha expansion. it was then the limbus got divided, the ones agreeing the terms of gorkha nd the ones opposing it came face to face in the battle where the alliance of limbu-gorkha defeated the alliance of limbu-sikkim.

 
Posted on 09-24-12 9:52 AM     [Snapshot: 515]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Daaku,

Regarding your points 1,2 and  I have no problem except one. History of Sikkim says words  "Limbuwaan" and "Tsong" existed at the same time in the history. Then why two words.
Later after reading yours posting twice and Kirat_rocks posting I think It is explanable.

You  "Limbu translates to "archer" or "bearer of bow and arrow"
Kirat_rocks    "
the literal meaning of limbu in 'yathung' language is bearer of bow, 'li' means bow"
I understand  this must have been writtien somehere in history of limbu that is why you guys posted here.

For me this seems to be a very naieve explanation. Why ? let us analyse this statement 

In sikkim there were three groups of people Lepcha, bhutia and tsong. History of sikkims ays that these three races fought with each other, faught against Gurkhas. 
1. While fighting with each other all three races (bhutia, Lepcha and tsong) must have used bow and arrow
2. Army of the rular of the Sikkim must have batallian or whatever whuch uses bow and arrow as weapons of choice
3. Therefore, use of Bow and arrow is not limited to the "tsong"
4. History of the world shows that at one stage every race used bow and arrow as a weapons of choice.
5. If Bhutia and lepcha also using bow and arrow why only "tsong" were called limbu why not Bhutia and lepcha. Warrieor of Bhutia and Lepcha were also bearrer of the bow and arrow.
6. History of the world tells us that in olden days weapons were considered sacred, bow and arrow being sacred to limbu is not special. 
7. Using bow and arrow was a very common practice among fighetrs at that time of the history , and considering bow and arrow as sacred is not specific to limbu, this explanation is not suffcient to explain the start of new "Jaat" Limbu. Because common practice does not require seperatin only specific practice requires new identification according to Sociology.


But later I found hidden explanation which is plausible, looks logical but do not have evidence. My explanation based on yours and Kirat_rocks posting and after reading History of sikkim is 

In Sikkim somehow "tsongs"  were not teated equally. It may be because the rular were tyrant and "tsongs" were asking rular to behave. Which offcourse rulars dont like and hey used to give "tsongs" a lots of hard time, one of those is forced labour.
ot may be "tsong" were considered bad people ( I dont know waht was considerd bad at that time) so "tsong" were subjected to forced labour

Anyway "tsong" dont like the begavior of the King and many of them decided to revolt against. For revolution they needed weapons and I am sure that there was no AK-47 at that time so they had to use bow and arrow. They fled to Limbuwaan organise a army and raided many parts of the Sikkim.

So, the group of people with bow and arrow raiding different parts of the Sikkim. This specific activity may be good enough reason to start new "jaat" Limbu from "tsong". 
So in generel, we can consider Limbu as "bow and arrow"  krantikari. A krantikari which bears bow and arrow. Not a regular military. This behavior of some (not all ) tsong was good enough for starting new "race"  "Limbu".

Ok, Now what happend to those "tsong" which acepted the forced labour and those "tsong" who were doing "chakadi" "chaplusi".to avoid forced labour (This is human behavior and existed in every society)?

They either remained as tsong in Sikkim ( they still have Limbus in Sikkim dont they) I guess Pawan Chamling , Chief minister is a Limbu) and later started to call themslevs as Limbu.
This is very plausible explanation but no hard evidence.

your pint no. 4
No comment. all neighbours are interdependent to some extent, so very usual.

your point no. 5
to proove this you have to come with acceptable evidence because

The British India describes its relation with Bhutan, Sikkim, Nepal, and other smallar principality of Indian sub continent. But they have not said anyhting about their relation with limbuwaan, their commerece with limbuwaan nothing. I might have overlooked it. if you have any evidence please share.

According to to history of Limbuwaan posted in their website. The limbwaan continued to exists in the era while British were expanding their colony. Calcutta was their capital before Delhi. How come British never mentioned anyhting about their relationship and dealing with Lmbuwaan?
English writer have written about Limbu and Limbuwaan only within the contest of Nepal and Sikkim. Not as  a separte state. Howcome?

Howcome British empire missed  Limbuwaan?
This  point also contradicts the history of Sikkim, now dont blame Baauns for History of Sikkim.

History of Nepal, Sikkim and British India suggest that In Limbuwaan some were designated as tax collector for either Sikkim or Bhutan or Nepal depending upon to which country they belongd to in different time of the History. They were called, Subba, Mukhiya ( I think some Limbus have Mukhiya as family name). Later people confused them as kings and so started the the History.
your point 6. 
It contradicts with your point 5. Most probably when Limbu tax collector found that Gurkhas are unstopable they broke their relation with Sikkim and obtained "lalmohar" with gurkhas. 
point 6 laso contradicts what is written in the history of sikkim. read below.


The rise ofGurkhas also posed a threat for Sikkim. The later years of Phuntsok II witnessed Gurkhas inroads in Sikkim under the leadership of Raja Prithvi Narayan Shah of Nepal who formented the rebellious elements in Sikkim.

http://www.sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm
a
gain not written by baahun and Gorkhas but the history of sikkim 

Most probably PNS used the Limbus hate against the King of Sikkim to annex the Limbuwaan from Sikkim. Most logical is Sikkim lost the war. PNS pursuaded the limbu tax collector to join Gorlha nations in exchange of tax collection freedom. 
If there was a firece war between Limbuwaan and Gurkha, British must have come to meddle, they dont even mention this type of war happening, instead they mention about Gurkha Sikkim war,  how come? Why British empire is quiet about this? This is totally agianst the nature of British empire.

Point 7 : 90% agreed 
Different people were designated as tax colector in different settelements. may be there were 7 or 10 settelements and 10 different people were collecting tax in their corresponding settelement on behalf of the country they belonged to.

Point 8.

Different perception, but may be true

Point 9

I agree

Point 10

If it was a allience history of British India might have spoken about it while mentioning Gurkha Sikkim war. They are silent about Limbuwaan. I dont see any British conspiracy in it. British India was very infamous or its divide and rule policy. If there was a country called Limbuwaan and as strong as depicted in Limbuwaan website British might have used that oppertunity to further supress Nepal as they used Sikkim Nepal dispute to fuel enemety between these two country.
As I said before  history without documented evidence and if it is not third party verifiable  is a mythology not history. 
History of Bhutan is quiet about country of Limbuwan
History of Sikkim is quiet about the country of  Limbuwaan
And British India has not spoken a wrod about the country of Limbuwaan
According to Limbuwaan website geography of the country of Limbuwaan, all three of these countries share border with limbuwaan.
Whereas history of  Sikkim and Bhutan speaks about geographical area called limbuwaan and, tax collectors and security officers acting on behalf of their country.

It is boring to me too. But hey as someone said 

Your study is not complet untill you spent 30% of your study studying the thimgs you dont like.

Regarding you doubdt about my interest about federal system in nepal I will explain later.
 










Last edited: 24-Sep-12 10:13 AM

 
Posted on 09-24-12 11:37 AM     [Snapshot: 573]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I like Limbus.....they know how to party.

These young limbus certainly aspire to read, write, and speak in Limbu Language one day. They may even uplift their own kind and defeat their bahun and chetri enemies.

http://gallery.onlinekhabar.com/category_sub.php?pstyle=1&gid=96

 
Posted on 09-24-12 11:43 AM     [Snapshot: 553]     Reply [Subscribe]
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in local limbu dialect bow is still called 'li', the tribes only with thier different clan names after sucessfully revolting against the rulers decided to collectively form a name 'limbu' in the area east of arun river and west of sikkim. the social structure then was still homogenous; the social norms, rules and regulations were developed, which has evolved as a culture and rituals to this day. the region was restructred as 10 limbu and 17 thum, even today when a limbu priest fedengma performs sum rituals he starts by saying 'as per the rules of 10 limbu and 17 thum...' and bow is present in most of the rituals. it was feudal structure with independent 10 ruling states and bijaypur being the main administrative region. the states name like tambar, phedap, panthar, chathar, etc was in existence, till now limbu uses the term as phedape limbu or chathare limbu or panthare limbu from the region of thier origin. only couple of states made an alliance with sikkim since they didnt agree with the terms of gorkha but many other agreed and came under the house of gorkha. they have mentioned this region as pallo kirat, it is evident enough to understand the existence of nationhood, it was ceded in 1774 way before british made to north and an interest in these region who were engaging with tipu sultan far south meanwhile sikkim was still an independent kingdom when british arrived. the people of that region started using the surname 'limbu' after the annexation in modern nepal, before only clan names were used like nembang, chemjong, etc.  the sikkimese calls the people of limbu origin as tsong like yakthumba in thier own local dialect, they hav significant number in sikkim living from long generations till now,  in fact there is cultural similarities between limbu and lepchas. sikkim is the only place where limbu language is taught in thier university. pawan chamling is 'rai', he has done great work for sikkim. the history of the region is in presence within the people only, in thier lifestyle, cultural and religious practices. buda subba being one of them, it is actually the grave of last limbu king of bijaypur.

 
Posted on 09-24-12 1:15 PM     [Snapshot: 574]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Dharke

-How hard is it for you to grasp that "Limbus"  were called "Tsongs" in the kingdom of Sikkim?

-When the Yakthung people ousted their tyrant kings,in tribute to the the weapon with which the revolution succeeded,they started calling themselves "Limbu".Hence,it was the Yakthungs who christened hemselves as "Limbu",not the other way around.

-Limbus have inhabited Sikkim and intermarried Lepchas since time unknown.Bhutias are recent import.Limbus had a strong and large presence in Sikkim,so the Tsongs being exclusively persecuted is HIGHLY doubtful.Maybe a family,maybe a village...but the whole clan.Didn't happen.

The "Lho-Mon-Tsong-Sum" treaty i mentioned above,will give you a clear picture on how important the Tsongs were to the social fabric and sovereignty of Sikkim.

-The ten limbu kingdoms were 

  1.  Tambar ( capital:Tambar Yiok)
  2.  Mewa ( capital:Meringden Yiok)
  3.  Athraya( capital:Pomajong)
  4.  Yangwarok ( capital:Hastapojong Yiok)
  5.  Panthar ( capital: Yashok and Phedim).
  6.  Phedap ( capital: Poklabung)
  7.  Ilam ( capital:Phakphok)
  8.  Bodhey ( capital:Shanguri Yiok)
  9. Thala( capital:Thala Yiok)
  10.  Chethar( capital:Chamling Chimling Yiok)

For someone who says Pawan Chamling is a Limbu(He is a Rai),i bet a single pubic hair of my left testicle that you didn't know the above and most probably don't know where they fall in present day Nepal.Are those kingdoms mentioned in Sikkim/Bhutan/Tibet history?It is for you to figure out.

-Gorkha -Limbuwan treaty happened in 1774 (a.d.).P.N shah was the king of Nepal.Except for Yangwarok and Ilam,the other Limbu principality kingdoms were annexed to Nepal through the treaty.

The Sikkim-Gorkha war in Limbuwan happened in 1775(a.d) and Pratap Singh Shah was the king of Nepal,P.N Shah had just died and most probably the tragic Nepali hero Bahadur Shah was overseeing the throne and was the architect of this war.Limbu king Yong Ya Hang of Yangwarok (Present day Taplejung and Panchthar) raised a limbu army.Limbu army consisted of the soldiers of his kingdom and unhappy citizens of the Limbu kingdoms that had just recently been annexed to Nepal.Long story short it was a war fought between Gorkha-Limbu alliance against the Sikkim Limbu allainace.The latter party lost.So the annexation of all Limbu principality kingdoms was completed with a treaty in 1774 and war in 1775.

So,No...Limbus did NOT hate the Sikkimese.The Limbu kings honored the treaty that was signed a year ago in which they had pledged their allegiance to the Shah kings.What was in the 1774 treaty,please read it.

By the way...tata.



 
Posted on 09-24-12 1:27 PM     [Snapshot: 634]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 @kirat_rocks

As i was typing,you already had a post.Thank you for making it even clearer .

@Sap dude

Limbus do love to drink and party.No denying that.The sense of culture/identity/language/rituals have nothing to do with partying and grinding a fine ass .

Now i don't know who gave you that idea,but if Limbus considered bahuns and chettris an enemy,you wouldn't be seeing such strong presence of them in the eastern hills.Everybody within the geographical boundary of Nepal and of Nepali ancestry is a Nepali.
Last edited: 24-Sep-12 01:31 PM

 
Posted on 09-24-12 2:52 PM     [Snapshot: 685]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Daaku,

Now i don't know who gave you that idea,but if Limbus considered bahuns and chettris an enemy,you wouldn't be seeing such strong presence of them in the eastern hills.Everybody within the geographical boundary of Nepal and of Nepali ancestry is a Nepali.

Thanks for considering this Bahun a Nepali too.

Lately, because of all the Janajatis (not just Limbus) blaming me and my tribe for thier cultural and identity demise, i have started to believe may be it really was my culture that killed yours and other janajati. How do i get those young limbus to revive their language and culture? Is there still time? Can we hire some Bahuns to find out what the Limbu were like?



Last edited: 24-Sep-12 02:55 PM

 
Posted on 09-24-12 3:20 PM     [Snapshot: 709]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I can sense Dilip Rai in here. 


 
Posted on 09-24-12 3:35 PM     [Snapshot: 719]     Reply [Subscribe]
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@ Sap Dude

 -You are awesome.

-Your intellect is of unscalable height.

-You sure must have a12 inch dick and you for sure must be dating/screwing a supermodel

-Oh ! your sarcasm and metaphor.They are to die for.

-You are very witty

Thank you.

Clap..Clap...Clap

 
Posted on 09-24-12 3:46 PM     [Snapshot: 724]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 @anagram

If you are here with a preconceived notion,there is nothing for you in this thread.

I know who you are talking about..He might as well be a  "foreign spy" assigned to promote hatred in the web or a mad men for all i care.

I am here refuting false claim against Limbu and Limbuwan aka repping Limbu/Limbuwan.

What you reppin?Hatred...Racial superiority...Ignorance?

Last edited: 24-Sep-12 03:48 PM

 
Posted on 09-26-12 2:06 PM     [Snapshot: 914]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Daaku, looks like you are confused -what the word “Limbu” stands for

First, you said Limbu translates to "archer" or "bearer of bow and arrow”. Bow and arrow are very sacred to the Limbus.

This definition is in many “Limbu” related website too

According to this definition any bearer of the bow and arrow can be called “LIMBU” (there was no restriction put in this definition)

Carrying a bow and arrow was a common practice of different tribes living in that area. Actually at one time carrying bow and arrow was common practice among different tribes around the world.

When I explained that a common practice cannot separate different races, common practice does not require separation only specific practice requires new identification according to Sociology.

Then I gave some plausible explanation (which may or may not be true)

Then you come with the concept that “When the Yakthung people ousted their tyrant kings, in tribute to the weapon with which the revolution succeeded, they started calling themselves "Limbu".

Who were those tyrant kings? Where is the evidence? In what year that ousting happened? On one hand you say the relation between “tsong” and the rulers of the Sikkim were not that bad, they never dominated Limbus and there was never a major confrontation between Sikkim and Limbus then my friend, tell me against whom the Yakthung revolted?

Can you show me the evidence of the existence of the word Limbu in documents written before 1770 AD?

 I would like to accept it if you give me some verifiable evidence regarding it. Just don’t say things like a story teller. If I have to believe whatever you say then I also have to believe Krishna is a god because someone else said so. Unless someone comes with verifiable evidence to prove that Krishna was a god I am not going to believe it. Similarly I am not going to believe anything just because some group says so. In what age do you think we live in? Stone age?

So “limbus” are descendent of Yakthumba, not any other group/s? Are you sure? Do you have any evidence to support it? Then how come there are so many family names in Limbu?  Or those family names were started after they became Limbu? where is the proof??

My friend, gone are the days when you write /say something and others have to believe without any verification. Get out of your closet and try to understand and feel the current of the change

People speaking the same language, practising the same culture/tradition/religion and sharing the same DNA belong to one clan. Your claim that Bahun/Chettri/Newar living in Limbuwan are Limbus is a JOKE.

I answered it before saying a different perception but looks like you won’t understand unless someone hits you hard

How naive is that perception?

Is it necessary to speak same language, practice same culture/tradition/religion and sharing same DNA belongs to one Clan??

If a Limbu becomes Christian he is no longer a limbu? A Budhhist Limbu is not a Limbu?

History of Limbu shows there were different clans, how will you explain that?

Look what Limbu website says about different clans in Limbu

Limbu Clans and Tribes are divided into the Lhasa gotra (those from Lhasa,Tibet) and Yunan gotra (those who come from Yunan China). The Limbu are known as das limbu (ten Limbu), even though there are actually thirteen Limbu sub-groups. Legend says that five of the groups came from Yunnan, China and the other eight from Lhasa, Tibet.

http://www.pahimpariwar.com/limbushistory.htm

You could have at least checked websites related with Limbus before posting something like that. Don’t make fun of yourself please.

Do you think that people coming from Lhasa and China have same DNA? Do you think Chinese and Tibeteian phenotype is same? Same culture etc?? You have a vision problem or what?

Were you counting the number of hair in your left testicle while writing this?

Same DNA?? Are you day dreaming? Tell your answer to any biochemist/genetic engineer or sociologist and ask his advice about it and let me know his answer. Your answer was too idiotic to discuss so I tried to avoid the matter saying different perception but my friend you hit back saying

your claim that Bahun/Chettri/Newar living in Limbuwan are Limbus is a JOKE. “

Could you read following, posted in websites?

Unlike the caste systems brought forward to Nepal region since the Hindu invasion, social discrimination or caste system is not practised among the Limbu people and Limbu sub-groups, however there are numerous different clans and sects.

http://www.pahimpariwar.com/limbushistory.htm

I don’t think you know what you are talking about.

You compelled me to say something on this.

 I feel like I am debating with an eighth grader.

And you know how much difference in DNA is there between a Rai and Limbu?? Could you enlighten me on this?

Different clans can have same language/culture and religion haven’t you seen this around you? Or do I need to explain?

If Limbuwaan is a geographical area anyone living there can be Limbu like Nepal is a Geographical area so anyone who has Nepali citizen is Nepali, you don’t have to follow same religion/culture/language/and share same DNA.

And existence of Limbuwaan not as a country but as a geographical area is evident from Tibetain/Sikkimi and Bhutanese Histroy.

Till now I have seen evidence of existence of Sikkim/Nepal/Bhutan nominated tax collectors collecting tax and providing security to the people living in Limbuwaan.

Please don’t act on sentiments instead come with verifiable evidence

Daaku,

Do you know what original inhabitant of Limbuwaan called? Why Limbu people are not saying about this when I searched internet I found very interesting things like

·         Bhuiphutta tribes: Original inhabitants of Limbuwan.( my comment so, Limbu were not the original inhabitant?)

·         Yakthumba: The great Limboo fighters of Limbuwan regions.(my comment: that means not all limbus are yakthumba)

·         Thums: Sub-Divisions in Limbuwan.(my comment not country)

·         Yiok : Regions of Limbuwan.( my comment: they don’t say it as a capital, why?)

·         Khambongba-Lungbongba : Original tribes in Limboos.

http://www.sikkimonline.info/blogs/2010/10/useful-terms-and-definition.html

Word “Bhuiphutta” doesn’t sound a limbu word does it? So what happened to that tribe may I ask? Shall I ask for evidence for this or not? If I have to believe whatever you post then I have to believe this also without asking for any evidence isn’t it. Then how Limbus can claim “Aadibasi “of Limbuwaan?

So if you claim Limbuwaan is the place of Limbus then how come some other people saying bhuphutta tribes are the original inhabitants of Limbuwaan? Have you ever thought about it? Or you happy hiding inside a cubicle of your thoughts?

This is New Nepal my friend gone are the days of blind acceptance just because someone says so. Every claim will be challenged. You may not like it but this is a part of democracy.

Daaku,  not only about Limbuwaan but claim of any culture /group/religion which claims so and so was always been challenged. Even the concept very existence of the God was always challenged. So no offense intended here.

In Nepal many races/ethnicity are trying to prove that that had such and such glorious past.  For me, If some race had glorious past and awful present means they messed up with their “glory” when they had it.

My friend, it is not necessary for any cast/religion/ethnicity to have glorious past to enjoy present life/Nepali Life/to practice rights and follow the rule. It is the way of life these days. Because you were born in a race ethnicity/religion which had glorious past doesn’t not give you any privilege.

Also read

It is set to believe that Tsong people or Limbu clans in Sikkim were natives from the U-Tsang territory of Tibet. They migrated from Sjiyatse, Penam, Norpu, Giengtse etc. of the Tsang province of Tibet. They followed their guru Matog Lama and settled in Sikkim. The local people in Sikkim are called Chong, Tsong because of their migration from the "district of Tsang/ Tsong in Tibet". In Nepal and Darjeeling this word is also seldom used by Limbus to describe Sikkimese Limbu clans.

http://www.pahimpariwar.com/limbushistory.htm

And you come in sajha and talk about one clan/culture etc. My friend, use your brain while writing not the testicles.

Daaku you never answered what history of Sikkim says which I quoted in my posting earlier. Like

A boundary dispute with Bhutan also arose. The Magar Chieftain Tashi Bidur also revolted, though he was subdued. Limbuana was, however, lost to Nepal.

http://www.sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm


 
Posted on 09-26-12 2:07 PM     [Snapshot: 915]     Reply [Subscribe]
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You wrote

 

Sikkim did at one point try to culturally dominate/influence Limbuwan. But as you see, it didn't happen. Limbus remained true to their culture and did not convert to buddhism.

But website http://www.pahimpariwar.com/limbushistory.htm  says

Before the introduction of Sirijonga among Limbu Kiratas, Rong was popular in East Nepal specially in early Maurong state. Sirijonga had almost disappeared for 800 years and it was brought into practice again by Te-Ongsi Sirijonga Thebe (1704 - 1741 A.D.) of Tellok Sinam who fled to Sikkim where he was put to death by the Lamas of Sikkim in charge of educating people in Limbu language and in 1741. However, historical evidence show that Te-Ongsi Sirijonga Thebe studied under Sikkimese Lamas and Brahamans in India. 

 

If this site is to be believed Sikkimeli lamas killed the   person who studied under them just because he was educating Limbus in their language and . Sikkimeli history says there was Limbu revolt few times which was put down by force. (And you can imagine punishment Limbus might have handed over by Sikkimeli authority at that time). But you bravely claim otherwise.

You must be a crazy person

Now read below, even at around 1600 ad, History of Sikkim does not speak about its border with Limbuwana. This was not written by baaun. Or you think entire world is against Limbuwana?

AD 1600’s
Events of the persecution of the Nyingmapa sect in Tibet lead to their fleeing the country and taking refuge in places like Sikkim and Bhutan. In 1642 Phuntsog Namgyal, the grandson of Khye Bumsa is consecrated as the first Chogyal in Yuksam by Rimpoche Lhatsun Chempo, the founder of the Nyingmapa order in Sikkim. Sikkim’s territory then included the Chumbi Valley in the north, up to Ha Dzong in Bhutan, as far as the Arun River in Nepal, and much of the Jalpaiguri District of West Bengal.

http://questhimalaya.com/moreabout/index.htm

Please Read below

Phuntsog Namgyal was succeeded by his son, Tensung Namgyal in 1670. The reign of the chogyal was peaceful and saw the capital being shifted from Yuksom to Rabdentse. Chakdor Namgyal, the king's second wife's son, took over the throne from him in 1700. This outraged his elder half-sister Pendiongmu, who ousted him with the help of the Bhutanese. From 1700 to 1706, when Chakdor Namgyal, the third chogyal, ruled the Kingdom of Sikkim, most parts of Sikkim were under the invasion of Deb Naku Zidar, the king ofBhutan. Chakdor Namgyal went in exile into Tibet. The Tibetan people expelled the Bhutanese army, and called Chakdor Namgyal back to Sikkim.[1] Chakdor's son Gyurmed Namgyal succeeded him in 1717. Gyurmed's reign saw many skirmishes between the Nepalese and Sikkimese. Phuntsog Namgyal II, the illegitimate child of Gyurmed, succeeded his father in 1733. His reign was tumultuous as he was faced with attacks by the Bhutanese and the Nepalese who managed to capture the capital Rabdentse.

Tenzing Namgyalchogyal from 1780 to 1793, was a weak ruler, and his sovereignty saw most of Sikkim being appropriated byNepal. In 1788, the Nepali Gurkha Army invaded Sikkim, and took Limbuana and the former capital Rabdentse by storm. The king of Sikkim went into exile in Tibet for a second time. In 1788, the 8th Dalai Lama stationed him in Chumbi Valley in Rènà zong (also "Rèrì," today's Yadong County).[1][2].Tshudpud Namgyal, his son returned to Sikkim in 1793 to reclaim the throne with the help of China. Finding Rabdentse too close to the Nepalese border, he shifted the capital to Tumlong.

1. Mullard, Saul (2003). Bulletin of Tibetology (1, 2): 13–24.

2Journal of Qinghai Nationalities Institute III: 34. 1978-04. Retrieved 2008-11-21.

I tried to cover the history of Sikkim written by westerners. They mentioned countries like Nepal, Bhutan, Tibet but not Limbuwan and its ten kings, why?

History of Bhutan

Between 1627 and 1634, a series of wars culminated in the Battle of Five Lamas, the Shabdrung emerging victorious. Military incursions from Tibet and the Mongol Empire continued through 1714. As Bhutan gained its own measure of regional power in the late 17th century, it invaded neighboring kingdoms in SikkimCooch Behar, and the Duars.

In 1616, Shabdrung Ngawang Namgyal, facing arrest and following visions in which it is said that the chief guardian deities of Bhutan offered him a home, left Tibet to establish a new base in western Bhutan, founding Cheri Monastery at the head of Thimphu valley. During the Bhutanese period of theocratic rule (1616–1907), there was no regular standing army. The bow and arrow were among the principal means of arming the population during frequent upheavals and invasions.[1] During times of crisis, the government raised militias from among local lords' retinues, all commanded by one dapon ("arrow chief"),[2] a title used through modern times.[3]

 

1. Worden, Robert L. "British Intrusion, 1772–1907". Bhutan: A country study (Andrea Matles Savada, ed.). Library of Congress Federal Research Division (1991).   This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.

2. Rose, Leo E (1977). The Politics of Bhutan. South Asian Political Systems. Cornell University Press. p. 197. ISBN 0-8014-0909-8. Retrieved 2011-09-26.

3. Rahul, Ram (1997). Royal Bhutan: A Political History. Vikas. p. 26. ISBN 81-259-0232-5. Retrieved 2011-09-26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bhutan

So in the history of Bhutan too, they mention Sikkim, Coach Bihar and duars (I think present day doors) but no Limbuwana and its ten kings why?

What you guys did to entire world?  Why no one is mentioning ten kings and their kingdom of Limbuwana ? And, don’t say baaun played a role in it.

My friend, it is very easy to blame someone within your country but what about people outside the country? Do you have answer for this?

Come with some verifiable answer not with some hearsay stories.

Want to read more?

Karna Sena was accepted at Vijayapur a sits de Jure ruler, but the actual power was in the hands of Buddhikarna , the “Rajabahara Samartha”. However his power seemed to be confined only to Vijayapur and not over his fellow Kiratis in the Hills. A chronicle of the Sikkim rulers in the Limbu language mentions the chiefs (Hang) of Kirat thus:

Budhhikarna Rai of Morang-Vijayapur,

Jamun Rai of Chaubis thum,

Fung Rai of Pahthar,

 Jung Rai of Athrai,

Athang Rai of Phedap,

 Mongphang Rai of yangrup,

 Shubhanta Rai of Tamar,

Rainasingh Rai of Meiwa,

Asadeva Rai of Chhathar,

Harshamukhi  Rai of Chinpur and

Snuhang Rai of Arun 

http://books.google.ca/books?id=Aaog6bnQlNYC&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=Sikkim+Nepal+war&source=bl&ots=DgWzDy2zFb&sig=UaLdzJP-SUlg9_7rzHvszrSu4TI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qfdgUK3LOomv0AHk_YHgAg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=Sikkim%20Nepal%20war&f=false

This also indicates that they were tax collectors on behalf of Sikkim. This history was not written by Baauns. How come a chronicle written in Limbu language and from Sikkim refers them as  “chiefs” not King or Raja or kaji etc?

When Karna Sen ran away to Vijayapyr, Buddhikarna invited him to occupy the vacant throne. In this manner, the hill and Tarai territories of Chaudandi were fully annexed to Nepal within a period of 11 months.

The situation in the Limbuwan region of Vijayapur was critical at that time. Taking advantage of the dissensions between the king and his ministers, King Phunchek Namgyal of Sikkim occupied Ilam and attacked Limbuwan from the north-west of Ilam. The Limbus of these regions were therefore anxious to welcome the Gorkhali troops. Realizing this, the Gorkhali troops commanded bu Ramakrishna Kunwar crossed the Arun river from Dingla and reached Chainpur. Bobady blocked their advances. The writ of the King and his minister was confined to the areas surrounding the capital of Vijayapur, where King Karna Sen and his minister, Buddhikaran, were staying. It was the monsoon. Both the King and miniter were complacent, because they thought that the Gorkhali troops would not cross the Koshi and enter into Vijayapur during his season. However, Abhiman Simha Basnyat achieved his impossible task. Gorkhali troops, riding on elephant, crossed the turbulent Koshi and launched a surprise attack on Vijayapur (July 17, 1774). Unable to repulse this attack, king Karna Sen and Minister Buddhikarna fled to Sikkimalong with their troops. With the occupation of Vijayapur, the Limbu Subbas (chiefs) of the area from Islingwa to Changthapu in the Limbuwan region bordering Sikkim accepted Prithvi Narayan Shah’s suzerainty. Thus the entire Pallokirat region, with the exception of Ilam, was annexed without fight.

http://madhesi.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/historical-the-sen-kingdoms/

 

How many evidence you want my friend? Could you provide one verifiable evidence or history written by third party?

By the way what will happen if Limbu didn’t have Limbuwaan as a country and Limbu as a king? Will World war third start? Will universe turn upside down?

Is it shameful if your ancestors didn’t establish a great country?

Mr. Daaku,

You posted about 10 Rajya /Kingdom of Limbu, again from your Historians. I would like to see verifiable evidence of them being “Kingdom” not area ruled by tax collector “chiefs”

I can find those 10 kingdom posted in many Limbu related websites but what I am asking is where is a verifiable evidence. Other historians said they were tax collectors and they started to behave like ruler when the centre of those countries was week. I have posted evidence above.

Please check above posting who were the “chief” of some of the Limbu Kingdoms you mentioned.

History of Sikkim says “Tosngs were subjected for forced labour”   In the year 1752 the Tsongs rose in arms, but were subdued and won over by tactfully by Chandzod Karwang.

You can imagine the punishment imposed upon them after they were won over. That means condition was not easy for “tsongs” in Sikkim. That is why they fled over to Limbuwana and invited Sen King to rule them.

Kirat_Rocks

When British with fighting with Tipu Sultan and other Kings in India they were also busy in war with Napoleon in Europe. Most of the war in India was funded by rival kings (with very high interest off course) and solders were Indians with few exception. So War with Tipu Sultan cannot be an obstacle for British to come in contact with Limbuwana.

It is because Limbuwana was controlled by Nepal, Sikkim or Sen Rajya in different time in History. Limbuwana.

Limbu History confuses itself by saying those tax collectors and security officers as king.

 The Magar Chieftain Tashi Bidur also revolted, though he was subdued. Limbuana was, however, lost to Nepal.

http://sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm

This indicates that at that time Limbuwana was under Sikkim. And in Sikkim Magars also had to revolt, most probably there were not treated fairly.

Some website are writing like this

Same web site says

 वि.सं. १८२५ तिर वुद्धिकर्ण राय लिम्वु राजा भए उक्त समयान्तरमा अथिङहाङ लिम्वु पनि राजा भए

Whereas history of Sikkim, books written by British mentions Budhhikaran as sort of Ptime minister or military chief.

Why we need scientist ha?

PS: Don’t get upset when someone challenges your believe. Even the belief of existence of god has been challenged.

Mr. Daaku ,

During unification Gorkhali forces fought war with forces of Limbuwana. But that also does not necessarily give the existence of Kingdom in that area.

Why?

One of the very famous war Gorkhali fought was in Kirtipur, Gorkhali suffered heavy loss. PN Shah’s brother lost his eye and General Kalu Pandey was killed. Even PNS almost got killed. But Kirtipur was not a “Rajya”.

My friend, writing History wrong way brings strange changes in Society. They can make “Ram” and “Krishna” God. How many ppl worship them as God? And what is its impact on society. Some people might go crazy if someone publically says they were not god. And there are many temples constructed to house their idle (this part is constructive though, it created job, and help spread art at that time.)

FYI

Jesus cites wife in fourth-century , says US scholar

A fourth-century fragment of papyrus that divinity professor Karen King says is the only existing ancient text that quotes Jesus explicitly referring to having a wife. Photograph: Karen King/AP

A Harvard University professor has unveiled a fourth-century fragment of papyrus she said is the only existing ancient text quoting Jesus explicitly referring to having a wife.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/19/jesus-wife-ancient--harvard

We don’t need story tellers writing history, we need scientist to find the truth.


 
Posted on 09-26-12 2:15 PM     [Snapshot: 920]     Reply [Subscribe]
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continued from above.... 

This also indicates that they were tax collectors on behalf of Sikkim. This history was not written by Baauns. How come a chronicle written in Limbu language and from Sikkim refers them as  “chiefs” not King or Raja or kaji etc?

When Karna Sen ran away to Vijayapyr, Buddhikarna invited him to occupy the vacant throne. In this manner, the hill and Tarai territories of Chaudandi were fully annexed to Nepal within a period of 11 months.

The situation in the Limbuwan region of Vijayapur was critical at that time. Taking advantage of the dissensions between the king and his ministers, King Phunchek Namgyal of Sikkim occupied Ilam and attacked Limbuwan from the north-west of Ilam. The Limbus of these regions were therefore anxious to welcome the Gorkhali troops. Realizing this, the Gorkhali troops commanded bu Ramakrishna Kunwar crossed the Arun river from Dingla and reached Chainpur. Bobady blocked their advances. The writ of the King and his minister was confined to the areas surrounding the capital of Vijayapur, where King Karna Sen and his minister, Buddhikaran, were staying. It was the monsoon. Both the King and miniter were complacent, because they thought that the Gorkhali troops would not cross the Koshi and enter into Vijayapur during his season. However, Abhiman Simha Basnyat achieved his impossible task. Gorkhali troops, riding on elephant, crossed the turbulent Koshi and launched a surprise attack on Vijayapur (July 17, 1774). Unable to repulse this attack, king Karna Sen and Minister Buddhikarna fled to Sikkimalong with their troops. With the occupation of Vijayapur, the Limbu Subbas (chiefs) of the area from Islingwa to Changthapu in the Limbuwan region bordering Sikkim accepted Prithvi Narayan Shah’s suzerainty. Thus the entire Pallokirat region, with the exception of Ilam, was annexed without fight.

http://madhesi.wordpress.com/2007/01/14/historical-the-sen-kingdoms/

 

How many evidence you want my friend? Could you provide one verifiable evidence or history written by third party?

By the way what will happen if Limbu didn’t have Limbuwaan as a country and Limbu as a king? Will World war third start? Will universe turn upside down?

Is it shameful if your ancestors didn’t establish a great country?

Mr. Daaku,

You posted about 10 Rajya /Kingdom of Limbu, again from your Historians. I would like to see verifiable evidence of them being “Kingdom” not area ruled by tax collector “chiefs”

I can find those 10 kingdom posted in many Limbu related websites but what I am asking is where is a verifiable evidence. Other historians said they were tax collectors and they started to behave like ruler when the centre of those countries was week. I have posted evidence above.

Please check above posting who were the “chief” of some of the Limbu Kingdoms you mentioned.

History of Sikkim says “Tosngs were subjected for forced labour”   In the year 1752 the Tsongs rose in arms, but were subdued and won over by tactfully by Chandzod Karwang.

You can imagine the punishment imposed upon them after they were won over. That means condition was not easy for “tsongs” in Sikkim. That is why they fled over to Limbuwana and invited Sen King to rule them.

Kirat_Rocks

When British with fighting with Tipu Sultan and other Kings in India they were also busy in war with Napoleon in Europe. Most of the war in India was funded by rival kings (with very high interest off course) and solders were Indians with few exception. So War with Tipu Sultan cannot be an obstacle for British to come in contact with Limbuwana.

It is because Limbuwana was controlled by Nepal, Sikkim or Sen Rajya in different time in History. Limbuwana.

Limbu History confuses itself by saying those tax collectors and security officers as king.

 The Magar Chieftain Tashi Bidur also revolted, though he was subdued. Limbuana was, however, lost to Nepal.

http://sikkim.nic.in/sws/sikk_his.htm

This indicates that at that time Limbuwana was under Sikkim. And in Sikkim Magars also had to revolt, most probably there were not treated fairly.

Some website are writing like this

Same web site says

 वि.सं. १८२५ तिर वुद्धिकर्ण राय लिम्वु राजा भए उक्त समयान्तरमा अथिङहाङ लिम्वु पनि राजा भए

Whereas history of Sikkim, books written by British mentions Budhhikaran as sort of Ptime minister or military chief.

Why we need scientist ha?

PS: Don’t get upset when someone challenges your believe. Even the belief of existence of god has been challenged.

Mr. Daaku ,

During unification Gorkhali forces fought war with forces of Limbuwana. But that also does not necessarily give the existence of Kingdom in that area.

Why?

One of the very famous war Gorkhali fought was in Kirtipur, Gorkhali suffered heavy loss. PN Shah’s brother lost his eye and General Kalu Pandey was killed. Even PNS almost got killed. But Kirtipur was not a “Rajya”.

My friend, writing History wrong way brings strange changes in Society. They can make “Ram” and “Krishna” God. How many ppl worship them as God? And what is its impact on society. Some people might go crazy if someone publically says they were not god. And there are many temples constructed to house their idle (this part is constructive though, it created job, and help spread art at that time.)

FYI

Jesus cites wife in fourth-century , says US scholar


A fourth-century fragment of papyrus that divinity professor Karen King says is the only existing ancient text that quotes Jesus explicitly referring to having a wife. Photograph: Karen King/AP

A Harvard University professor has unveiled a fourth-century fragment of papyrus she said is the only existing ancient text quoting Jesus explicitly referring to having a wife.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/19/jesus-wife-ancient--harvard

We don’t need story tellers writing history, we need scientist to find the truth.

Last edited: 26-Sep-12 02:16 PM

 
Posted on 09-26-12 6:30 PM     [Snapshot: 995]     Reply [Subscribe]
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 Dharke

You,kind sir,is someone with too much time in hand.Infact you are turning out to be  the "chuchey" version of Dilip Rai.Idleness and no pussy makes people go loco.

I give up,Limbus are POS whose history and aspirations means eff all.Happy?





 



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TRUMP 2016!!! Here is why?
Returning to Nepal
महानियिका प्रियंका कार्कीजीलाइ खुल्ला पत्र !
भाउजु आउनु भाकी छिन रे नि !
~चौतारी १९९~
हाकिमनी संग- आज सुक्रबार -३
पिन्कुको नया काले हस्पि नाक चुचेय भाते भतुवा
Looking for Potential Match
Mnang, Mustang Treking and Our Engagement
chat girl -आजो सुक्रबार-२
Indian Worker Attitude
Wedding Costs in Nepal ? Party, Band Baaja !!!!???
Learning computer programming
प्रियंका कार्की फोटो अबलम भाग २ , ३ जून २०१६ copyright @पुन्टर
Looking for a man
अनभिज्ञ तिमी
वाह ! मन्त्री ज्यु वाह !
प्रियंका .का. लै चिठी भाग १
Four Characters and My Funeral
हाम्रो #Quarantine समयको सदुपयोग
Don't apply Canada Immigration through COLIN R. SINGER
Funny jokes
Presidential rights to assassination rights?
Former U.S. President Bill Clinton in Nepal
Build the Wall-MAGA
~चौतारी १९९~
महानियिका प्रियंका कार्कीजीलाइ खुल्ला पत्र !
TRUMP 2016!!! Here is why?
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