Posted by: chanaa_tarkaari February 13, 2011
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Maverick,
Yes, we could detailly discuss these issues in person. I basically disagree with your points for me. The voice against one language policy or sambat issue was raised several decades ago (not only twenty years). The voice is still there and will continue to be there until all stakeholders (both for and against) are satisfied. Like other forums, Sajha also has diverse audience. If you think only post '90 era nepalese hang out here, you are absolutely wrong. You have already seen the information brought here touch all range of Nepalese people. About the history of Nepal, you are probably now aware that there are a lot of controversies. The history is still in the process of unfolding facts that are new to us. The "taught history" in school and campus is just a tip of iceberg.
==========================
Yakku,
"khas-only mindset" and "unitary-khas-domination policy" is not a blame, but the reality of Nepal. However, all khas people are not equally responsible for the damage this policy did against many other languages and cultures of Nepal. All khas do not support the policy. You have to recognize the harm of the "unitary-khas-domination policy".
I do not understand why you are relating Mahabir Pun's work here. Mahabir's work is not for or against "khas-language domination".
============================
8848m,
If language is only to communicate, why we need to discuss khas vs newar? The entire world should use one language, NO? Actually, that does not work. The idea of ONE LANGUAGE ONLY in a country is authoritarian concept. People should not be forced to chose one. Let them use what they like.
BTW please stop using rubbish words like "shiat". I am not interested in such a menial exchange.
==========================
Sukla,
thank you for showing an interesting proof about the use of word "nepali/gorkhali"
Daboo,
thank you for your insights. I appreciate your presence in the thread.
==========================
bigrekoketo,
"Everybody is responsible for the situation of our country" is actually diffusing argument. Everybody is not EQUALLY responsible. The ruling people are more responsible than other ordinary citizen. The "Khas community" is very conservative because they think teaching and using khas language is enough for Nepal. This actually refuse recognizing other language. This is the main problem.
==========================
terobaaje ,
khas language is good for oral communication among various communities in Nepal. There is no doubt. But original name of "khas" is not "Nepali", you may call it "parbate", "gorkhali" or even "sinjali" if you wish.
Writing all your story is (hisi maru jya). I feel that I should stop commenting on your private life. In our society, we have plenty of such hateful-marriage relation in every cast and language group. That is not Newar-specific problem. By looking on racist "khas" family, I should not blame the entire "khas" community as the "most racist" as you did. The hierarchy of caste is actually made by upper class, not by lower class people. Upper class people think that they are accepted everywhere in the lower strata of the society. But the fact is that, the lower strata also committed to not accepting so called Upper class. For them, they have the pride on their culture and status, which the upper class fail to recognize.
You already mentioned my answer in your post - "Now please dont say that you dont hate us and you dont need to quote our comments like you need to justify and correct us...dont do it please". Where did you learn it is hatred to talk about equal-opportunity, equal-right, and to talk against state's discriminatory policy? You are fee to make any assumption about me but if you think I hate non-newars based on this discussion, then you are in absolute mistake.
=========================
sidster,
To understand the expansion and contraction of language, we need to understand the social behavioral pattern. Many parents started teaching "khas" language to their kids to avoid "ta ta ma ma" after newars were bullied for their inability to pronounce the word. The incentive of better job for better "khas" speaker also affected many non-khas natives. However, I agree with you that the non-khas (like newars) are also partly responsible. The negligence of their own has to be accounted in downfall of their language. I don't throw 100% blame to "khas" only in the downfall of other languages. About LIPI, devanagari is not "khas" lipi. This is actually Sanskrit lipi. Many descedents of Sanskrit use it. To ask stopping Newars use Devanagari is one the most stupid request I have ever encountered. Newar language is found in multiple sets of LIPI (about 17-different). Nepal lipi Guthi is a dedicated organization which is doing the job that you have requested.
"Do not let him sit in your " Tel Pasal, haluwa swari pasal or momo pasal" after school." This is inaccurate generalization of Newar society. Newar society does not only produce tel, haluwa swari or momo pasale, they also produce large number of other professionals. By the standard of diverse-profession, Newars have well survived in all sectors, but where are other non-khas except Newars? what made them so behind in the race? Passing "lokseva" for non-khas is difficult because of discriminatory language policy, which push them behind from the beginning of their education. Therefore you find more than 90% bahun-chhetri got enrolled as section officer (post '90 data who passed through lokseva). In a multi-lingual society, such a biased intake rate itself indicates the depth of the problem. It is not just the lack of learning "samanya gyan book".
Autonomous state is in the talks. Make sure the Newar you vote talks about your agenda in the house. There is a mechanism for it. You should get your fair recognition. If your population is 5% of the total population. I fully agree that it should get 5% of the consideration.
It is mere childish to keep commenting on personal interest. Some may follow hindi, some others may follow urdu, some may follow khas, some may follow english, french or even birds language. Unlike "khas" other language appeals to Newar audience, but khas is imposed one.
The words "inferior complexity", "sankuchit", "sampradaik", etc. has no place in this discussion. Use of these words show that you are out of logic. Newar is not a "race", then how it is "racist" to discuss the problem of Newar? Do you understand what the word "racist" mean? I think I have written already, if you missed that part, listen, I don't ask "khas" people to come and promote Newars. I just ask "khas"-inclined government to stop practicing discriminatory policy. Sadly, khas people like you do not want to change existing discriminatory policy, and you end up rampant bad-mouthing against us, who are arguing for equal treatment. We are in our fight to get equal treatment, without harming you, why you want to stand against us? If you stand against us, yes, you will get hurt. That is the nature of fight.
"One more thing....not all Newars are proud of being a Newar.... my Newar friends hated it when their parents talked in Newari to them infront of their friends."
They probably wanted to avoid the embarrassment of "ta ta ma ma". There may be many reasons, but you are true. There are some newars who hate themselves for being a newar. Unfortunately, they can't change to a non-newar no matter whatever they do and keep hating themselves in their entire life.
=============================
shantipriya,
Asking for equal treatment and equal right is not hatred. If it would be hatred, perhaps Newars won't have khas friends, Newars won't learn, use, and write in "khas" language. Contradictory to this, you find 100s of Newars earning recognition in top-level Khas literate. Asking "We have done this to you, what you have done to us?" is not negative thinking.
And, what is your point on Bricks n bulls of Dr. Tiwari? You made several stupid remarks that I already thrashed into bay. You are now so disturbed by that and acting like a cry-baby. I understand very well why you are calling me everywhere you appear. Do you think the book is only available to you? or is that a indoctrinating book? Why should I tell you excerpt of a book I read?
Going into the topic, do you think rise and fall of malla dynasty is all about the newars? Do you think Newars did not exist in Lichhavi period? I have mentioned you about an 8th century creation of Newars, now you find yourself who was the king that time. The Dhungedhara of Lichchhavi period mentioned in the book establishes how ancient the structure and technology was developed in Nepal. It does not establish that the Lichchavi-period "khas" people invented them and taught Lichchhavi-period newars about making Dhungedhara and bathing. The technology and culture built in Nepal was by its original inhabitants - the Newars.
===========================
GorkheCowboy
I wrote before - "I don't believe you", you proved me correct. right?
=============================
Nalapani,
When I read the history, I actually found all kings and princes came from somewhere else. The original inhabitants are rarely found as the ruler in Nepal unless they are offsprings of the ruling clan, who came from somewhere else. The Lichhavis, who displaced Gopal, were in run from south. The Mallas, who displaced Lichhavi, were also running away from their enemies leaving their own land. The Shahs, who displaced Mallas, were invaders. It is not clear in any part of the history what Newars, the local people of Nepal Khaldo, were doing in all those political up and downs. Most historical documents are based on inscriptions, which are mostly established to pray powerful kings of the time. Therefore, the true history of ordinary citizen is not available to us.
There are nepalese temples in Banaras, Patna and many other places in India, but that does not prove that Nepalese kings have ruled those region. This is similar to the story about Kasthamandap built by Malaya Bam. The Mallas from Jumla and Mallas from Kathmandu should have quite different cultural upbringing. Linking these kings and their clans and interpreting that as the "khas" existence in the middle of "Newar" settlement would be erroneous.
Also, it is hard to believe that the throne of KTM khaldo remained unclaimed, where a complex urban population settled, and a powerful throne existed in Jumla, where nothing existed to serve even the basic needs. There are many similar unconvincing claims in our history, which makes it really hard to get objective knowledge.
Similarly, the Lichhavi period have used several languages, including Sanskrit and Nepalbhasa, but is there any evidence of "khas" language being used in Lichchavi period? or has it been recognized as "nepali" in the lichchavi period? I am interested to know this, if it exists.
You asked me about a solution. It is too early to put a solution. We don't need to thrash out newars or non-newars right now. We first need to create an environment where we can live with mutual respect. Right now, I have observed that "khas" people get disturbed badly when Newars or other non-khas community demand equal opportunity and equal treatment for their language and culture from the state-mechanism. This is basically arrogance against other lingual and ethnic community. We need to grow up above this irritation, and need to stop being arrogant against others, and then we can find out appropriate solution.
================================
dharke bro,
You have shown how Malla kings did not impose Newar language to all their people. The article emphasizes on the use of Maithali. Similar article may be written for other languages too, e.g. Sanskrit. Many Malla kings were multi-lingual. I take that as a positive aspect of the Malla kings.
Besides, you have put some useful information and some contradictory logics to make your arguments showing "Newars are bad". I will go through them when I get time.
Yes, we could detailly discuss these issues in person. I basically disagree with your points for me. The voice against one language policy or sambat issue was raised several decades ago (not only twenty years). The voice is still there and will continue to be there until all stakeholders (both for and against) are satisfied. Like other forums, Sajha also has diverse audience. If you think only post '90 era nepalese hang out here, you are absolutely wrong. You have already seen the information brought here touch all range of Nepalese people. About the history of Nepal, you are probably now aware that there are a lot of controversies. The history is still in the process of unfolding facts that are new to us. The "taught history" in school and campus is just a tip of iceberg.
==========================
Yakku,
"khas-only mindset" and "unitary-khas-domination policy" is not a blame, but the reality of Nepal. However, all khas people are not equally responsible for the damage this policy did against many other languages and cultures of Nepal. All khas do not support the policy. You have to recognize the harm of the "unitary-khas-domination policy".
I do not understand why you are relating Mahabir Pun's work here. Mahabir's work is not for or against "khas-language domination".
============================
8848m,
If language is only to communicate, why we need to discuss khas vs newar? The entire world should use one language, NO? Actually, that does not work. The idea of ONE LANGUAGE ONLY in a country is authoritarian concept. People should not be forced to chose one. Let them use what they like.
BTW please stop using rubbish words like "shiat". I am not interested in such a menial exchange.
==========================
Sukla,
thank you for showing an interesting proof about the use of word "nepali/gorkhali"
Daboo,
thank you for your insights. I appreciate your presence in the thread.
==========================
bigrekoketo,
"Everybody is responsible for the situation of our country" is actually diffusing argument. Everybody is not EQUALLY responsible. The ruling people are more responsible than other ordinary citizen. The "Khas community" is very conservative because they think teaching and using khas language is enough for Nepal. This actually refuse recognizing other language. This is the main problem.
==========================
terobaaje ,
khas language is good for oral communication among various communities in Nepal. There is no doubt. But original name of "khas" is not "Nepali", you may call it "parbate", "gorkhali" or even "sinjali" if you wish.
Writing all your story is (hisi maru jya). I feel that I should stop commenting on your private life. In our society, we have plenty of such hateful-marriage relation in every cast and language group. That is not Newar-specific problem. By looking on racist "khas" family, I should not blame the entire "khas" community as the "most racist" as you did. The hierarchy of caste is actually made by upper class, not by lower class people. Upper class people think that they are accepted everywhere in the lower strata of the society. But the fact is that, the lower strata also committed to not accepting so called Upper class. For them, they have the pride on their culture and status, which the upper class fail to recognize.
You already mentioned my answer in your post - "Now please dont say that you dont hate us and you dont need to quote our comments like you need to justify and correct us...dont do it please". Where did you learn it is hatred to talk about equal-opportunity, equal-right, and to talk against state's discriminatory policy? You are fee to make any assumption about me but if you think I hate non-newars based on this discussion, then you are in absolute mistake.
=========================
sidster,
To understand the expansion and contraction of language, we need to understand the social behavioral pattern. Many parents started teaching "khas" language to their kids to avoid "ta ta ma ma" after newars were bullied for their inability to pronounce the word. The incentive of better job for better "khas" speaker also affected many non-khas natives. However, I agree with you that the non-khas (like newars) are also partly responsible. The negligence of their own has to be accounted in downfall of their language. I don't throw 100% blame to "khas" only in the downfall of other languages. About LIPI, devanagari is not "khas" lipi. This is actually Sanskrit lipi. Many descedents of Sanskrit use it. To ask stopping Newars use Devanagari is one the most stupid request I have ever encountered. Newar language is found in multiple sets of LIPI (about 17-different). Nepal lipi Guthi is a dedicated organization which is doing the job that you have requested.
"Do not let him sit in your " Tel Pasal, haluwa swari pasal or momo pasal" after school." This is inaccurate generalization of Newar society. Newar society does not only produce tel, haluwa swari or momo pasale, they also produce large number of other professionals. By the standard of diverse-profession, Newars have well survived in all sectors, but where are other non-khas except Newars? what made them so behind in the race? Passing "lokseva" for non-khas is difficult because of discriminatory language policy, which push them behind from the beginning of their education. Therefore you find more than 90% bahun-chhetri got enrolled as section officer (post '90 data who passed through lokseva). In a multi-lingual society, such a biased intake rate itself indicates the depth of the problem. It is not just the lack of learning "samanya gyan book".
Autonomous state is in the talks. Make sure the Newar you vote talks about your agenda in the house. There is a mechanism for it. You should get your fair recognition. If your population is 5% of the total population. I fully agree that it should get 5% of the consideration.
It is mere childish to keep commenting on personal interest. Some may follow hindi, some others may follow urdu, some may follow khas, some may follow english, french or even birds language. Unlike "khas" other language appeals to Newar audience, but khas is imposed one.
The words "inferior complexity", "sankuchit", "sampradaik", etc. has no place in this discussion. Use of these words show that you are out of logic. Newar is not a "race", then how it is "racist" to discuss the problem of Newar? Do you understand what the word "racist" mean? I think I have written already, if you missed that part, listen, I don't ask "khas" people to come and promote Newars. I just ask "khas"-inclined government to stop practicing discriminatory policy. Sadly, khas people like you do not want to change existing discriminatory policy, and you end up rampant bad-mouthing against us, who are arguing for equal treatment. We are in our fight to get equal treatment, without harming you, why you want to stand against us? If you stand against us, yes, you will get hurt. That is the nature of fight.
"One more thing....not all Newars are proud of being a Newar.... my Newar friends hated it when their parents talked in Newari to them infront of their friends."
They probably wanted to avoid the embarrassment of "ta ta ma ma". There may be many reasons, but you are true. There are some newars who hate themselves for being a newar. Unfortunately, they can't change to a non-newar no matter whatever they do and keep hating themselves in their entire life.
=============================
shantipriya,
Asking for equal treatment and equal right is not hatred. If it would be hatred, perhaps Newars won't have khas friends, Newars won't learn, use, and write in "khas" language. Contradictory to this, you find 100s of Newars earning recognition in top-level Khas literate. Asking "We have done this to you, what you have done to us?" is not negative thinking.
And, what is your point on Bricks n bulls of Dr. Tiwari? You made several stupid remarks that I already thrashed into bay. You are now so disturbed by that and acting like a cry-baby. I understand very well why you are calling me everywhere you appear. Do you think the book is only available to you? or is that a indoctrinating book? Why should I tell you excerpt of a book I read?
Going into the topic, do you think rise and fall of malla dynasty is all about the newars? Do you think Newars did not exist in Lichhavi period? I have mentioned you about an 8th century creation of Newars, now you find yourself who was the king that time. The Dhungedhara of Lichchhavi period mentioned in the book establishes how ancient the structure and technology was developed in Nepal. It does not establish that the Lichchavi-period "khas" people invented them and taught Lichchhavi-period newars about making Dhungedhara and bathing. The technology and culture built in Nepal was by its original inhabitants - the Newars.
===========================
GorkheCowboy
I wrote before - "I don't believe you", you proved me correct. right?
=============================
Nalapani,
When I read the history, I actually found all kings and princes came from somewhere else. The original inhabitants are rarely found as the ruler in Nepal unless they are offsprings of the ruling clan, who came from somewhere else. The Lichhavis, who displaced Gopal, were in run from south. The Mallas, who displaced Lichhavi, were also running away from their enemies leaving their own land. The Shahs, who displaced Mallas, were invaders. It is not clear in any part of the history what Newars, the local people of Nepal Khaldo, were doing in all those political up and downs. Most historical documents are based on inscriptions, which are mostly established to pray powerful kings of the time. Therefore, the true history of ordinary citizen is not available to us.
There are nepalese temples in Banaras, Patna and many other places in India, but that does not prove that Nepalese kings have ruled those region. This is similar to the story about Kasthamandap built by Malaya Bam. The Mallas from Jumla and Mallas from Kathmandu should have quite different cultural upbringing. Linking these kings and their clans and interpreting that as the "khas" existence in the middle of "Newar" settlement would be erroneous.
Also, it is hard to believe that the throne of KTM khaldo remained unclaimed, where a complex urban population settled, and a powerful throne existed in Jumla, where nothing existed to serve even the basic needs. There are many similar unconvincing claims in our history, which makes it really hard to get objective knowledge.
Similarly, the Lichhavi period have used several languages, including Sanskrit and Nepalbhasa, but is there any evidence of "khas" language being used in Lichchavi period? or has it been recognized as "nepali" in the lichchavi period? I am interested to know this, if it exists.
You asked me about a solution. It is too early to put a solution. We don't need to thrash out newars or non-newars right now. We first need to create an environment where we can live with mutual respect. Right now, I have observed that "khas" people get disturbed badly when Newars or other non-khas community demand equal opportunity and equal treatment for their language and culture from the state-mechanism. This is basically arrogance against other lingual and ethnic community. We need to grow up above this irritation, and need to stop being arrogant against others, and then we can find out appropriate solution.
================================
dharke bro,
You have shown how Malla kings did not impose Newar language to all their people. The article emphasizes on the use of Maithali. Similar article may be written for other languages too, e.g. Sanskrit. Many Malla kings were multi-lingual. I take that as a positive aspect of the Malla kings.
Besides, you have put some useful information and some contradictory logics to make your arguments showing "Newars are bad". I will go through them when I get time.