captain thaks for your comprehensive reply. and thanks for that useful link. my views are greatly resonating with yours on this issue. :) i like this argument: We can disagree on what the right thing is but history has shown that those struggling for equality and dignity *always* win in the long run i am not sure if blacks have achieved everything for which they started their revolution against whites though.....time will tell, i believe. my third point is meant to ask the definition of marriage---the umbrella of marriage--what it should/should not include. perhaps your argument that it has to be processed stepwise makes sense. Since gay marriage is our main agenda here, we should focus on justifying it rather than bringing more complex and psychological issues like bestiality or pedophilia. also there may NOT be consent from both parties in the latter two. but i believe that incest (sibling marriage) can stil well be on the following agenda after gay marriage. who knows? . LooTe