nepe jyu, if i list all the humuliating practice from 1 through 9 and as item 8 i slide kanyadan then you are saying that it is not meant to be in the same class as the other... just putting them together under the same heading makes it of same nature. I am just trying to find out how "kanyadan" seem to stay in the same list as "badi" "deuki" and all the other definitely humiliating practices.