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 Is religious tolerance and freedom of speech mutually exclusive?

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Posted on 01-08-15 2:58 PM     Reply [Subscribe]
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We grow up hearing about religious tolerance, how we should respect people's beliefs. Then, in parallel we grow up hearing about the freedom of speech.

Making fun of someone's religion is not religious tolerance.
Being able to make fun of someone's religion is freedom of speech.

Who will decide what is right?
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Posted on 01-11-15 5:54 PM     [Snapshot: 1251]     Reply [Subscribe]
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@metta.... Can you explain what is this term "Religion" is? Can you explain what is this term "Hindu" is? Can you explain what is this term "Secular" means? Can you explain what is this term "Hindu State" means? And finally, can you tell me where do all these exist?
Posted on 01-11-15 6:03 PM     [Snapshot: 1263]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I asked you a very simple question, and you don't want to answer. I don't know what religion is except some fools are willing to die for it and also some like you come forward showing that my religion is great like this and that and everyone should learn about my religion. Hindu State in my understanding means that the proponents want to call Nepal हिन्दु राष्ट्र नेपाल and give special status to only one religion. I can't talk in your twisted logic about their existence.

Posted on 01-11-15 6:09 PM     [Snapshot: 1261]     Reply [Subscribe]
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You don't want to respond cause you have no answer. See, I have friends like you who wants a utopian society but lacke the word 'reality' in their vocabulary. Yes, everybody wish the world should be perfect, but it has never been and never will be.
BTW, comparing LGBT issue in a European context is bit ridiculous. Europeans are far ahead of the Americans accepting gay marriage. Now take gay marriage from a Muslim perspective, I'm all ears if you think Muslims treat better to gays than Americans.
And talking about pile of shit, I am fine with my shit in my backyard but I do not prefer they toss their shit in my property. Is that not a rational human logic? Your logic is my backyard is clean but I have to tolerate people's shit cause I'm more evolved. For how long?
Posted on 01-11-15 6:26 PM     [Snapshot: 1281]     Reply [Subscribe]
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@ metta..... You don't even know what the term "Religion" means. You don't even know what "Secular" means. You don't even know where all these things exist. And you are discussing about Religious Tolerance and Freedom of Speech. You want a simple "Yes" or "NO" answer from me like a child.
Also, please keep aside your emotional tone. You are emotionally reactive rather than having decent conversation.
Posted on 01-11-15 6:40 PM     [Snapshot: 1288]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Yes, you're right, I don't know what the religion means and what secularism mean. I told you already I don't know, and I'm not much interested to know about the religion because I think organized religion is the source of problem, not the solution. But you keep on insisting not to provide answer with one after another excuse, first it was meaningless, second you can't provide the answer unless the the government functions according to your ideology, third you ask digressing questions, and now you're accusing me of being emotional and not being decent. I simply asked a question to you who had accumulated all these knowledge and to you who knows precisely how the world should function. Without all these knowledge also, I think I can see the irony of promoting religion tolerance by making Nepal a hindu rastra.
Posted on 01-11-15 6:50 PM     [Snapshot: 1285]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Vhootee, Save the emotion for something else more meaningful. I don't see your line of reasoning leading to an effective solution but you are entitled to your beliefs whatever they be. Common sense dictates that give and take is required to move forward on an issue of such delicacy. So all the best to you - you have said what you believe France should do - some would agree and some disagree - now let's just see where France and the world actually go in the years and decades to come.
Posted on 01-11-15 8:28 PM     [Snapshot: 1343]     Reply [Subscribe]
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I don't have any solution. What makes you think I need one? Who are you anyway to think there is a solution?
You have labeled my logical questions with few words 'save your emotions'. What kind of answers is that? Are we talking English here or is it in French?
Whatever... Go preach your logic to kids and hippies. As you said, let us see what the French will decide.
With that, I say good luck.
Last edited: 12-Jan-15 05:23 AM

Posted on 01-12-15 1:31 AM     [Snapshot: 1473]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Vivant i don’t know how you can say that Vhotee is being emotional. He is just being rational. But you my friend, you are being very naïve. I am not sure where you get the idea that all muslims, 5 millions of them in France are being marginalized, may be from your as*. How naïve of you to say the muslim women choose to cover themselves from head to toe and are not forced to do so by their husbands and dads. Even if that was the case, should any society compromise on security? Why do I not have the right to go around fully covered (even my face) whereas the muslim women can? Oh, I understand, it is your logic of give and take. Basically you are saying if you do not want to anger these backward crazy nuts, you need to give in to their demands. Man you are a coward and we can’t count on people like you to advance our society in terms of democracy and human rights because you are willing to give up to anything just to keep peace and appease some crazy camel riders.
The problem of France is not its immigration laws, which is neither different and nor marginalizing than that of any other western countries. If France had 5 million Mexicans instead of muslims there’s wouldn’t be any problem or at least like the one they have with muslims.

Posted on 01-12-15 6:53 AM     [Snapshot: 1505]     Reply [Subscribe]
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This one is for you Vivant.......
Get your head out of your *** and look what you have in front........Give and take, right??? How much can you give to these barbarians? These western countries already let them in. That should be more than enough. If they are not happy, they go back to their caves.

Germany won′t tolerate ′Sharia police

Radical Muslims declare 'Sharia zone' in western Germany
Last edited: 12-Jan-15 06:56 AM

Posted on 01-12-15 1:41 PM     [Snapshot: 1598]     Reply [Subscribe]
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BC, An insult can never be equal to a cost of life. That is common sense and rule of law.
My sentiments exactly..

But what is also common sense is that if a certain group is known to kill people when you insult them, then you might want to think about it a little and use some prudence before provocating them too much with insults.
Its like asking Pussy Riot to stop singing anti Putin songs, its like asking Bassem Youssef stop stop making fun of Egypt's generals because you might end up in jail. If it was not for those provocateurs the Arab spring would have never took place. If it is not for those umbrella rallys Hong Kong will never get to elect its own governor anymore.
Posted on 01-12-15 2:36 PM     [Snapshot: 1635]     Reply [Subscribe]
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BC seems like you do not want to acknowledge common sense.

The point is - if you tease a mad dog (too many times), it will come to bite you. There is no Pussy Riot song or umbrella rally in Hong Kong needed to understand that basic common sense.
Posted on 01-12-15 2:54 PM     [Snapshot: 1645]     Reply [Subscribe]
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lol We are not talking about Dogs Neo, of course the dog will bite(and they cannot be held accoutable). But we are talking about humans who will be held accountable.
Posted on 01-12-15 3:01 PM     [Snapshot: 1668]     Reply [Subscribe]
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BC, we are talking about extremists and fanatics who unfortunately we cannot hold accountable. Hope you get the point!
Posted on 01-12-15 3:43 PM     [Snapshot: 1687]     Reply [Subscribe]
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You don't get the point do you, ne0? You need provocators to push boundaries to advance democractic principles even further. Go and learn the meaning of "provocators". They know the risk they are taking and the braves ones are willing to die for the principles.
Comparing Charlie Hebdo's incident with a mad dog just shows your level of intellegence. Someone who provokes a mad dog is simply stupid whereas someone who makes fun of religious idol is trying to make a point that in democracy, religion should not govern and dictate people.
Posted on 01-12-15 4:08 PM     [Snapshot: 1711]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Hurray you are jumping to conclusions too soon. I fully support freedom of speech. I am only saying perhaps this incident could be avoided if they did not constantly provocate them.

Do you agree that this incident could be avoided if they did not constantly provocate them or not? That's all I'm saying. 

You should read this article. An excerpt below:

"Every country, including France, has limits on freedom of speech. In 2005 Le Monde was found guilty of “racist defamation” against Israel and the Jewish people. In 2008 a cartoonist at Charlie Hebdo was fired after refusing to apologise for making antisemitic remarks in a column. And two years before the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten published the cartoons of Muhammad in 2006, it rejected ones offering a light-hearted take on the resurrection of Christ for fear they would “provoke an outcry”."
Last edited: 12-Jan-15 04:08 PM

Posted on 01-13-15 8:33 AM     [Snapshot: 1865]     Reply [Subscribe]
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i understand that the incident could have been avoided by CH, but the magazine was being lauded by Muslims for defending them after 9/11 attacks. It's the hypocrisy that baffles me.

By the way, the only limitation on freedom of speech in any democracy is that you cannot infringe on that of others freedom to not read write or listen to whatever you have to say. If the paper published cartoons which you don't like, fine, don't buy the paper, don't read it, that is anyone's freedom but killing is no one's definition in a democratic society. You just cannot put rules on what to say and what not to say because then it will be open ended and some "Group" will come and say you cannot say this, and some other group will come and say you cannot do that and it will just be a total mess of a free people's right to express themselves.

I understand the sentiments of Muslims, and even I sympathize with them on this matter, but one needs to understand that it's okay to be disgusted, because that is your right, it's okay to say "je ne suis pas Charlie" because that is their freedom. But to kill? That is hitting right in to people's generational culture for expressing themselves and being free to do that and that is not acceptable at all.
Posted on 01-13-15 11:51 AM     [Snapshot: 1920]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Posted on 01-13-15 12:24 PM     [Snapshot: 1936]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Thanks BC for the video. I shed tears. What a scholar, what courage and what thinking. My goodness I needed this after all the news of bloodshed and hatred that I have been reading throughout the week. If only there were more like him in any culture.
Posted on 01-16-15 1:02 AM     [Snapshot: 2147]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Interesting discussion. Here's something which is noteworthy.

Charlie Hebdo cofounder says murdered editor 'dragged' team to death

One of Charlie Hebdo's founding members has spoken out about murdered editor in chief Stéphane Charbonnier, who was known simply as "Charb," saying he "dragged the team" members to their deaths. (Twelve people, including two police officers, were killed in the attack at the Charlie Hebdo office on Jan. 7.)

Henri Roussel, a cofounder who worked on the very first issue in 1970 and goes by the pen name Delfeil de Ton, made the comments that appeared in the left-leaning French magazineL'Obs on Wednesday.

Roussel, 80, insisted that the increasingly provocative cartoons led to the shooting. Headdressed Charb directly: 

"I really hold it against you."

Roussel called Charb an "amazing lad" in his comments but also a stubborn "block head." He also referred to the decision to print a cartoon of the Prophet Muhammed in 2011 accompanied by the caption "100 lashes of the whip if you don't die laughing" and the headline "Sharia Hebdo," saying that Charb dragged the team into "overdoing it."

Charlie Hebdo's Paris office was burned down by arsonists in a firebombing shortly after the printing of that issue. But the magazine continued to depict images of Muhammed that many viewed as inappropriate and offensive.

The publication's longtime lawyer, Richard Malka, reacted angrily to Roussel's comments.

“Charb has not yet even been buried and Obs finds nothing better to do than to publish a polemical and venomous piece on him," Malka said in a message to Mathieu Pigasse, one of the owners of L'Obs.

“The other day, the editor of Nouvel Obs, Matthieu Croissandeau, couldn’t shed enough tears to say he would continue the fight," Malka added. "I didn’t know he meant it this way. I refuse to allow myself to be invaded by bad thoughts, but my disappointment is immense.”

Croissandeau defended the decision to publish Roussel's comments, citing freedom of speech.

Salman Rushdie also spoke out in defense of Charlie Hebdo on Thursday, insisting that freedom of speech must be absolute. Pope Francis disagreed, stating there were limits to free expression while he was en route to the Philippines. "If my friend says a curse word against my mother, he can expect a punch," the Pope said. But he added that one must not kill in the name of God.

This week's issue of Charlie Hebdo, the first since the attack, depicts the Prophet Muhammed once again. Five million copies are being printed in six different languages, and huge queues formed across Paris on Wednesday when the issue dropped. It sold out instantly, but newsstands will be refilled throughout the week.

Posted on 01-16-15 6:37 PM     [Snapshot: 2234]     Reply [Subscribe]
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Salman Rushdie made a career out of writing and speaking against Islam. Credibility-wise, he is neither a judge nor a jury. The Pope seems to have a better head on his shoulders. Yet another great Argentine there.

Charlie Hebdo co-founder: Prophet cartoons went too far

A co-founder of Charlie Hebdo disagreed with the French magazine's decision to publish cartoon depictions of the Prophet Mohammed and says he is upset with the magazine's slain editor, Stephane Charbonnier.
Henri Roussel, now 80, wrote a letter with his views in the wake of the terrorist attack at the magazine's office in Paris. Twelve people were killed, including Charbonnier, known as "Charb."

In your working career, if you come across a boss like the literally-fired Editor-In-Chief at Charlie Hebdo, Stéphane Charbonnier, you have to know then that it is time to walk-off else you might get fu^ked.

Again, I can't stress enough, cartoons should only be drawn about current public figures and not dead ones.

Last edited: 16-Jan-15 06:57 PM


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