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Dual citizenship in Nepal

   Is anybody know about dual citizenship i 23-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
     Babu Ram Jee, Dual Nationality is again 23-Feb-02 Gosaikunda
       Do people who want dual citizenship belo 23-Feb-02 yeta na uta
         Gosaikunda jee Thanks a lot for your 23-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
           If Dual Citizenship is granted, does tax 23-Feb-02 Digital Maniac
             Yeta na uta jee Thanks for your respo 23-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
               Hi Digital Maniac Something is better 23-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                 Hi Everybody... Your valuable thought 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                   Babu Ram Mahajan or maharjan whatever... 24-Feb-02 Outraged
                     I agree with Outrage. You can't have 24-Feb-02 Biswo
                       The only problem with what Outrage is ta 24-Feb-02 ISM
                         >Babu Ram Mahajan or maharjan whatever.. 24-Feb-02 outraged II
                           Outraged, Biswo, Outraged II and ISM jee 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                             Mr. Outraged II If you have intellige 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                               Baburamji: Did anyone forced the so c 24-Feb-02 Biswo
                                 The Oath of Citizenship: "I hereby decl 24-Feb-02 Bill
                                   Biswo jee Thanx a lot for a nice r 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                     Hi, Discussion over dual citizenship 24-Feb-02 PurnachandraMaharjan
                                       Bill jee Thanx a lot for posting th 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
Purna jee Muri muri Dhanebad. I reall 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
   Before you make hues and cries over dual 24-Feb-02 HahooGuru
     I am confused...could somebody please ex 24-Feb-02 Durcheeruwa
       HahoGuru wrote: > >Are you looking for 24-Feb-02 Maila
         Me again. I am not a legal interpreter, 24-Feb-02 Maila
           Baburamji: My objection is with the w 24-Feb-02 Biswo
             Biswo ji wrote: But giving these peop 24-Feb-02 HahooGuru
               Biswo ji wrote: But giving these peop 24-Feb-02 HahooGuru
                 Hahoo guru, Darchheruwa , Maila and Bisw 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                   >If you have intelligent brain in your 24-Feb-02 outraged II
                     A friend of mine came from different > 24-Feb-02 outraged II
                       .A friend of mine came from different 24-Feb-02 outraged II
                         Outraged jee Your name is really matc 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                           NO! NO!! NO!!! No dual citizenship. 24-Feb-02 Gandhi
                             Gandhi jee My thanx gose to your nice 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                               Some background research: Biswo, I fo 24-Feb-02 ashu
                                 Ashu jee I personally thank you for 24-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                   Babu Ram Maharjan wrote: >>>Come to USA 25-Feb-02 Outraged
                                     Ashu: Thanks for looking into that ma 25-Feb-02 Biswo
                                       Plain and simple Nepal should allow peop 25-Feb-02 MCR
Outraged jee Nevermind whatever we di 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
   WHO CARES ABOUTH THESE THINGS RIGHT NOW, 25-Feb-02 PURE NEPALI
     MCR jee Thanx for your nice suggestio 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
       Pure Nepali jee Thanx for your few wo 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
         BROTHER, WHEN U OBTAINED FOREIGN NATIO 25-Feb-02 PURE NEPALI
           I think people here are not lobbying for 25-Feb-02 uzzo
             The Oath of Citizenship of USA: "I here 25-Feb-02 Bill
               Dear friends Again I am not clear why 25-Feb-02 Gandhi
                 Pure Nepali Jee Accepting foreign cit 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                   Bill jee Can you go through to look a 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                     Time and again, I have seen debates on t 25-Feb-02 def
                       Narayan! Narayan! Aaj pata chala.. Nara 25-Feb-02 Narad_Muni
                         Baburamji: I neither understand , nor 25-Feb-02 Biswo
                          
Baburamji: I neither understand , nor 25-Feb-02 Biswo
                             Gandhi and UZZO Jee I agree with bot 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                               it is time to go home now. get yourself 25-Feb-02 Ins
                                 Biswo, Your analogy of your Engineer fri 25-Feb-02 keGarne
                                   This is what this “Babu” wro 25-Feb-02 outraged II
                                     BABU RAM, U DON'T 25-Feb-02 gai BHOTE
                                       Biswo jee Thanks for nice comments wi 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
People choose citizenship coz they gain 25-Feb-02 dodhare
   Let me take a guess :- People who have 25-Feb-02 sunakhari
     I TOTALLY SUPPORT YOUR SAYING DODARAA.TH 25-Feb-02 100%NEPALI
       Dodhare jee Thanx for your view. This 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
         Dodhare, Fortunately, th 25-Feb-02 keGarne
           Sunakhari jee Thanx for your nice gue 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
             Ke garne jee Thanx for you kind suppo 25-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
               BRM, Are you asking for peoples' opin 25-Feb-02 sparsha
                 Baburam ji, Tare maam! You raised 25-Feb-02 Satya Prakash
                   Satya Prakashji: Your argument is rid 25-Feb-02 Biswo
                     Biswo wrote: >I reject the way people 25-Feb-02 ashu
                       Ashu: Statutes by their nature are li 26-Feb-02 Biswo
                         Biswo, Even statutes are OPEN to inte 26-Feb-02 ashu
                           I am curious to know how Mr. Biswo feels 26-Feb-02 Brook
                             Satya Prakas, "Those who have alr 26-Feb-02 sparsha
                               Satya Prakash Ji Tare mama Tapailai P 26-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                 Biswo and Ashu Ji Thanks a lot both o 26-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                   Outraged and Outraged II, I think you 26-Feb-02 Canadian_Nepali
                                     Do you need DC for the following reasons 26-Feb-02 def
                                       Ranjan, I agree with you. People who hav 26-Feb-02 keGarne
Ranjan and ke garne Ji I agree with 26-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
   I absolutely agree with Canadian Nepali 26-Feb-02 sunakhari
     Def, How many people do you know whose m 26-Feb-02 keGarne
       Reply to Canadian_Nepali(Not Nepali). 26-Feb-02 outraged
         Mr Def I know your question is reason 26-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
           Babu Ram and friends, There is no quest 26-Feb-02 gaunle
             Hear hear! Reason Number 5: Some peop 26-Feb-02 sally
               Ashu: Ok, let's leave the legal thing 26-Feb-02 Biswo
                 Btw my "hear hear" is specifically for S 26-Feb-02 sally
                   I want to make one thing clear. I do not 26-Feb-02 def
                     Dear Biswo-g, Thanks for your emotion 26-Feb-02 Satya Prakash
                       Hi all, These questions are for those 26-Feb-02 Destitution
                         Satyaji: Take it easy , ok. All I wan 26-Feb-02 Biswo
                           This thread has become a great show. Tha 26-Feb-02 Nepe
                             I am very glad to read very differnent o 27-Feb-02 Roma...
                               Biswo Ji I'm really glad with your lo 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                 Ramaji Thanx for your thoughts.Your c 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                   I think citizenship goes beyond economic 27-Feb-02 _BP
                                     Nepe ji Thanx a lot for your logical 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                       Hi Roma, The challenge in Nepal is to 27-Feb-02 ashu
I got Hahoo!DC. The first guy to publ 27-Feb-02 HahooGuru
   I got Hahoo!DC. Hahoo!ligan haru ko J 27-Feb-02 HahooGuru
     BP ji Thanx for expressing your feeli 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
       Hahoo guruji Congratulation being 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
         Maharjan-ji, I wish I had more time to d 27-Feb-02 _BP
           Oh, and BRM-ji, I am absolutely not bein 27-Feb-02 _BP
             NEPE I fully agree with your arguements 27-Feb-02 sunakhari
               This is intersting...... Brief overvi 27-Feb-02 MCR
                 Dear very legally knowledgeable person, 27-Feb-02 sally
                   MCR ji Thanx a lot for your nice over 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                     MCR ji Thanx a lot for your nice over 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                       More examples of countries which allow D 27-Feb-02 Nepe
                         Nepe ji Thanx a lot for providing val 27-Feb-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                           Hahoo wrote: >Nepe being half-Maoist su 27-Feb-02 Nepe
                             Nepe, you know Nepal is not the only cou 27-Feb-02 _BP
                               No to dual citizenship! It sounds like C 27-Feb-02 ekalkate
                                 Nepeji: Your list of countries allowi 27-Feb-02 Biswo
                                   This subject is surely creating a lot of 27-Feb-02 Da Ge
                                     Last message it was supposed to be "khan 27-Feb-02 Da Ge
                                       Ekalkate, thanks for making some of the 28-Feb-02 _BP
Greetings All From what I have seen 28-Feb-02 MCR
   Biswo, You have a valid point. Regard 28-Feb-02 gaule nepali
     First of all, the argument that people s 28-Feb-02 krishna
       correction: First of all, the argumen 28-Feb-02 krishna
         Providing an opportunity to hold dual ci 28-Feb-02 dual citizen
           can't have chichi and papa at the same t 28-Feb-02 hmmm....
             Hi guys Thanx all of you pouring nice 01-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
               According to ANGI KRIT NAGARIKTA in Nep 01-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                 Mr. Krishnaji You are absolutely corr 01-Mar-02 MCR
                   Gentlemen: >Many foreigners from Indi 01-Mar-02 Biswo
                     I'm trying to show the reality I found i 01-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                       MCR ji Thanx for your nice suggestio 01-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                         > >Nepali who born in Nepal and spent t 01-Mar-02 wonderer
                           Greetings Mr. Biswoji I find you to b 01-Mar-02 MCR
                             why people are commenting about this gah 01-Mar-02 vodka2
                               Wonderer ji Take it easy on it. Calm 01-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
                                 Think twice >before you say something. 01-Mar-02 wonderer
                                   MCRji: >Believe me I am one of last p 01-Mar-02 Biswo
                                     Babu Ramji Namaste I personally t 09-Mar-02 Perdeshi
                                       Perdeshi ji Thanx a lot for your kin 10-Mar-02 Babu Ram Maharjan
Those of you who wanted to have dual cit 26-Apr-02 Mitra2
   The link above does not work, so I copie 26-Apr-02 Mitra2
     There is not such a influential debate i 26-Apr-02 Rastra
       Mitra2Ji Thanx a lot for your post 27-Apr-02 Babu Ram Maharjan


Username Post
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 23-Feb-02 05:47 PM

Is anybody know about dual citizenship in Nepal? Are lawmakers working on it? Is there any possibility of dual citizenship in future? Write me about this truely please.

BABU
Gosaikunda Posted on 23-Feb-02 08:21 PM

Babu Ram Jee,
Dual Nationality is against the constitution of Nepal.
yeta na uta Posted on 23-Feb-02 09:42 PM

Do people who want dual citizenship belong anywhere in US or Nepal?

Does somebody who becomes naturalized in US really care about Nepal? Why on earthshould they care about Nepal?
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 23-Feb-02 10:19 PM

Gosaikunda jee

Thanks a lot for your nice reply. I heard that dual nationality will be allowed in Nepal in future. I'm not sure it is true or not. If it is against constitution of Nepal nobody can get this opportunity while they are holding foreign nationality. In my view dual nationality should be opened in Nepal for all Nepalese who live abroad. Do you know any Nepali communities such as GBNC,ANA,NAC ,E-sathi ...ETC working on this issue? I think this is a serious problem for those Nepalese who are naturalized in different countries. I request all of you to take essential steps to gain this right.

BABU
Digital Maniac Posted on 23-Feb-02 10:35 PM

If Dual Citizenship is granted, does taxes need to be paid in both the countries? If it is the case, then Nepal will benefit rather than the $20 fee don't you think.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 23-Feb-02 10:48 PM

Yeta na uta jee

Thanks for your response. I think it is very good to have dual nationality for all Nepalese who are naturalised in different countries. It is painful when you lose your all rights from motherland. Wherever you go you love your motherland and you care her. It is benefit for both countries having dual nationality,isn't it?

Is it any wrong for Nepal having dual nationality? I see nothing wrong.I encourage all Nepalese friends to fight for this right.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 23-Feb-02 10:56 PM

Hi Digital Maniac

Something is better than nothing. Dual citizenship is really helpful for our motherland in every aspects. Do you think it hurts Nepal? I don't think so. Are you positive about this?

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 09:35 AM

Hi Everybody...

Your valuable thoughts and suggestions are very very welcome on this topic. Express your opinions more and more please. If anybody knows about this issue feel free to write here please.


BABU
Outraged Posted on 24-Feb-02 11:54 AM

Babu Ram Mahajan or maharjan whatever.....

If you really care your motherland why the hell you are naturalized to other country. Man stop showing fake love and don't be hypocrite. Just care about your own personal benefits. Why you couldnot a pay small visa fee when you visit nepal and you are talking about dual citizenship just to save couple of bucks. What the hell........

About dual citizenship how about those millions of indians who are residing in nepal for a long time. We should strongly oppose this freaking dual citizenship concept. Nepal is not united states or canada to compare with.

OUTRAGED
Biswo Posted on 24-Feb-02 01:09 PM

I agree with Outrage.

You can't have divided loyalty. And I certainly think that some Nepalese are asking
this dual nationality thing not to contribute to Nepal, but to avoid the visa fee.

Will someone tell me what kind of contribution is he/she trying to do to Nepal,
out of his/her so called love, and was hampered in that because of his/her foreign
nationality?

Americans are helping Nepali NGOs, one German rencently made a house for Maiti
Nepal, and none of them needed Nepali nationality to do that.

If we love Nepal so much,and if we are foreigner now, we should show our love to
Nepal by paying visa fee. Otherwise, better shut up and stop crocodile tear.
Leaders in Nepal have looted the nation for long, we shouldn't do any more. As
Hahooguru once wrote, the foreigner Nepali pay bribe to immigration officer
while going to Nepal to smuggle their good, and accuse later those officers of
being corrupt. Why the hell they forget Badaamahaaraajaadhiraaj's quotation:

"Ghus Dinyaa ra ghus khaanyaa dubai desh kaa mahaan shatur hun. Yinko ta
dhanjiu gariliyaako pani paap chhaina."

Oh, Prithvi Narayan Shah, where art thou?
ISM Posted on 24-Feb-02 01:11 PM

The only problem with what Outrage is talking about is that so many Indians have bought dual citizenhsip from Nepal, they make money in Nepal and take it to India!

Why shouldn't children of Nepali's or Nepali's who have left to make a better life for themselves have the right to come to their mother country and perhaps bring business, capital in the future. Nepali's in high places have sold out to Indians and now they want kick out those who are truly from Nepal, who for only the reason to make a better life for themselves and help their famlies out leave their beloved homeland.

Don't give dual citizenship to Indians, give it to Nepali's who for the lack of oppurtunity left Nepal to better their lives and support their families in Nepal!
outraged II Posted on 24-Feb-02 01:17 PM

>Babu Ram Mahajan or maharjan whatever.....
>
>If you really care your motherland why the
>hell you are naturalized to other country.

Exactly!!!

>Man stop showing fake love and don't be
>hypocrite. Just care about your own
>personal benefits.

Yeah Just care about your personal benefits!

Why you couldnot a pay
>small visa fee when you visit nepal and you
>are talking about dual citizenship just to
>save couple of bucks. What the hell........

These people thought Nepal as a hell and now they want the dual citizenship.
At least contribute some bucks to the Rajaswho of Nepal by paying visa fee..you people have not done much for the country.

The advocates of the dual citizenship issue are trying to show a fake emotions to the country. If you love your motherland so much why the hell you deserted the country in first place?

Come back to Nepal. You can be a "BABU" in Nepal than a second class citizen of the US. Only BABOOn's have better fate in US.

Ask about the NRN status first then think of talking about this dual citizenship business.

>About dual citizenship how about those
>millions of indians who are residing in
>nepal for a long time. We should strongly
>oppose this freaking dual citizenship
>concept. Nepal is not united states or
>canada to compare with.
>OUTRAGED
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 02:38 PM

Outraged, Biswo, Outraged II and ISM jee

Thanks a lot for your nice comments as well as suggestions. I really agreed with MR.ISM. I'm not talking about couple of dollars for visa fee while visiting Nepal.I'm talking about thousands of Nepalese people who were naturalised in different foreign countries in different circumstances. Can you see them losing thier citizenship rights, properties and abduction from their beloved families ? Nepal government gave nationality to thousands of Indians and Tibetans. Which was a great mistake that everybody knew. Can you compare those people and your own brothers and sisters? No you can't.So what the hell is wrong on this? Give dual citizenship to all decent naturalised Nepalese and open and welcome to them to their motnerland.Give them golden opportunity to develop her.

We are in 21st century.Nepal can't stay on same palce forever. Allowing dual citizenship is a kind of new step in development. I know Nepal is not USA and Canada but it is better to follow good things not bad things. Nepal needs all her children from around the world. Open the door for them. Close the door for Indians and Tibetans.........


BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 03:38 PM

Mr. Outraged II

If you have intelligent brain in your skull you don't have to change your name wherever you go. You can get your respects as well as wonderful life easily. I'm happy and fully satisfied with my name BABU where I'm living now.I love my patriotic name. You seem really scary having your Nepali name in USA that's why you're welcoming Outraged ...Outraged II whatever...to show your real patriotism. Thanks a lot man for your real nice attempt. Come to USA to have first class life. Good luck man.


BABU
Biswo Posted on 24-Feb-02 04:14 PM

Baburamji:

Did anyone forced the so called 'Nepalese people who were naturalised in different foreign countries in different circumstances' to take another citizenship? No. They
chose that path, right or wrong. They were looking for a good life, and they got
what they looked for. Indians and Tibetans, if they got Nepali citizenship,got citizenship not from constitutional way, and those 'Nepalese who were
naturalised..' are also free to take citizenship that way.

Another thing is the state is not run on emotionalism. State runs from the loyalty
and citizenship is mainly built by geographical affiliation, and loyalty. Those people
who doesn't want to pay visa fee aren't going to do anything significant for
Nepal. I mean, you can pay those bucks for your Starbucks cafe, for visa to
Mexico, for visa to Canada, for visa to India, why can't you pay for Nepal? I think
if the Nepali out side Nepal loves Nepal, he/she should start showing his love by
paying visa fee first.
Bill Posted on 24-Feb-02 04:38 PM

The Oath of Citizenship:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

(Exact wording courtesy of: U.S.

Enven if Nepal allowed dual citizenship, the Oath of Citizenship disallows this under oath.
What does the earth mean to you. It means that you, in conscience, have allegeance to another country, (Prince) (King) or otherwise.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 05:07 PM

Biswo jee


Thanx a lot for a nice reply.

I agree with you. Nepali citizenship is mainly built by geographical affiliation and loyalty. Many Indians as well as Tibetans got Nepali nationality by unconstitutional way.A friend of mine came from different country got Nepali nationality by paying Rs 10,000 (GHOOS) in front of me. I aslo know that Nepali administration is not strict on issuing nationality so far. I'm positive about paying visa fee to ease Nepali econony too. My main concern is rules and regulations should be made for innocent Nepalese living abroad to have citizenship from motherland legally. Why we do fraud to get our own right?

Biswo! do you think it is better idea to get Nationality from Nepal as other foreigners do? Anyway it isn't legal,is it? So the best solution is to allow all Nepalese from abroad to have Nepali nationality legally.

BABU
PurnachandraMaharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 05:21 PM

Hi,

Discussion over dual citizenship for Naturalized persons is not a bad idea and it is also a legitimate demand for their will to help Nepal with feeling a genuine Nepali.

Whoever foreign people have been helping to Nepal and Nepali are the great persons. I admire them whole heartily, but we have to ask yourself that why we can not help to the destitute people in Nepal. Absolutely, we can and we all have that willingness. It may be just a matter of time. Some persons might be trying to do something for Nepal and its people. It is just my perception at this moment.

Having the opportunity to be a dual citizen (if Nepal made it constitutional) is a pride for all the Naturalized people because they do not loose their passion to Nepal. No one can blame it as for avoiding visa fee. I disagree on it.

Naturalized people can invest their certain percent of income in Nepal having constitutional rights of citizen of Nepal. Isn't it a good idea? Of course, it is a good idea and it does not harm anyone. Why don't we look forward ??

Pcm
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 05:45 PM

Bill jee


Thanx a lot for posting the oath of citizenship of USA. I understood that it is against any allegiance to other countries. But US law does not prohibit having dual citizenship unless you do any harm to US. If you're honest to US there is no any oppositon to have dual citizenship. Many naturalised foreigners in US holding dual citizenship if their native countries allow it.

Bill! write me if you see somethings that oppose on this issue.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 05:59 PM

Purna jee

Muri muri Dhanebad. I really appreciate your views on dual citizenship. Our thoughts coincide eachother.See how important it is for naturalised Nepalese who want to do something for their motherland by embracing...

Thanx once again

BABU
HahooGuru Posted on 24-Feb-02 06:02 PM

Before you make hues and cries over dual citizenship,
it would be better to outline how are you going to help?
In what respect Nepal will get benefit except in tax
invasion (i.e. to import electronic goods [that covers
your air ticket to Nepal], e.g. Dr. Sharma's posting in
TND long time back), and visa. What I smell is the dual
citizenship seekers make only a few cries:
1. They sent some faxes during 2046saal andolan, where?
But, claim was very effective. Remember Bahudal came
not because of those faxes, but, because of the death
of peoples infront of Raj Durbar and public support on them.
Check te pictures at IMAGE UPLOAD SECTION.
2. Visa: they are crying that they can not pay visa.
3. Ansa Banda ko Problem.

Meanwhile, can you show any amount of money paid by
those DCz seekers paying custom, I don't. They are real
smugglers. Do you say anyone transferring money to
Nepali Banks? None. They all sell Dollars in Black market
or transfer all money via Hundi. So, they all indulge in
illegal biz. If you disagree, show some proofs, how much
remittence was done by the DCz seekers. You should demand
only when you have some real contribution, and we feel
that you are having trouble because of the deadblock created
by this issue. You guys are seeking DCz from very start,
where we do not see any point on issuing DCz.
(except a few who use Credit cards, because CD has
not other options).

Are you looking for Dual citizenship bill be passed that is
applicable to those living in USA, NA or europe? Or,
its also applicable to all the ex-nepalis around the world?
If its for all the ex-Nepalis, what will be its impact on
Nepal? Overall impact, especially from neighbouring countries?
Durcheeruwa Posted on 24-Feb-02 06:14 PM

I am confused...could somebody please explain why do you need dual citizenship if you are naturalized. Just like somebody already pointed out you don't need Nepali citizenship to love Nepal. What is your purpose to get Nepali citizenship please explain ......
Maila Posted on 24-Feb-02 06:25 PM

HahoGuru wrote:
>
>Are you looking for Dual citizenship bill be passed that is applicable to those living in USA, NA or europe? Or,its also applicable to all the ex-nepalis around the world?
>If its for all the ex-Nepalis, what will be its impact on Nepal? Overall impact, especially from neighbouring countries?

Not sure about the dual citizenship bill being passed. If, at all, it is the case, then it would make sense to make it initially applicable for only those countries (Nepalis having citizenship) where a passport is REQUIRED to travel to Nepal. When India and Nepal agree to make it mandatory to use passport to travel to each other's country, then India will also fall in this category.
Maila Posted on 24-Feb-02 06:36 PM

Me again. I am not a legal interpreter, but think, in legal or constitutional terms, there is a difference between nationalilty and citizenship. May be somebody having knoweldge in this area can throw more light on it.

It is good to discuss the pros and cons of a dual citizenship. However, what is needed for a foreign passport holder of a Nepali orgigin is the status of a Non-resident Nepali.

Along the line of thought of nationality and citizenship, in its strict sense, don't you think the slogan "Janani janmabhusmcha..." (displayed at the top of this bulletin) will be outdated for many if not in conflict for many?

Your thoughts?
Biswo Posted on 24-Feb-02 06:59 PM

Baburamji:

My objection is with the words in which the demand for dual nationality is couched.
Let's not quibble with word. When we say 'we want to love our nation, but
we don't have nationality, so give us that ..' then we are only hiding truth. Let's
say it clearly, "We are Nepali, but now live in US/Canada. But since we have a lot
of our relatives in Nepal, we need to go to Nepal frequently. Paying visa fee
sucks.So please, waive this fee."

Baburamji, a lot of Nepali living in foreign countries have their relatives in powerful
position back in Nepal. In Atlanta gathering, this was also raised with some
ministers, and Mr Deuba.But it is just not a reasonable demand.Frankly, I haven't
seen any Nepali in USA who is adopting any good cause in Nepal.Just to
occasionally throw a few hundred bucks, one doesn't need nationality.

And finally, I have seen some people living here even after Fullbrights and other
awards. OK. Fine. But giving these people two citizenship is doing injustice to
Nepali ordinary citizen. Any way, Nepal's law says that if somebody invests
1 crore in Nepal, he gets (naturalised) citizenship. So, why not try that way?
HahooGuru Posted on 24-Feb-02 07:12 PM

Biswo ji wrote:

But giving these people two citizenship is doing injustice to
Nepali ordinary citizen.

Any way, Nepal's law says that if somebody invests
1 crore in Nepal, he gets (naturalised) citizenship.

So, why not try that way?

----------
Good Points. Nepal can introduce allow dual citizenship to
such investors? I don't think there will be a single one
Nepali who will be investing 1 crore. Because anyone
who can invest 1 crore Nepali rupees will not be
living in NA/ europe, he will have better life in Nepal
with that much of investments. So, they are already
Nepali citizens.
HahooGuru Posted on 24-Feb-02 07:24 PM

Biswo ji wrote:

But giving these people two citizenship is doing injustice to
Nepali ordinary citizen.

Any way, Nepal's law says that if somebody invests
1 crore in Nepal, he gets (naturalised) citizenship.

So, why not try that way?

----------
Good Points. Nepal can introduce/ allow dual citizenship to
such investors? I don't think there will be a single one
Nepali who will be investing 1 crore and staying in NA.
Because anyone who can invest 1 crore Nepali rupees will not be
living in NA/ europe, he will have better life in Nepal
with that much of investments. So, they are already
Nepali citizens. For millionnaire Nepalis (in US $), the
citizenship will not be a trouble/ barrier to do biz. in
Nepal. The trouble is only to those who are
seeking

1. share in ansa banda
2. can not pay Visa Fee $20.
3. want to take Electronic goods to Nepal
in foreign passports and upon returning want to
leave Nepal on Nepali passports, so can sell
those electronic goods in Nepal to get the air ticket back.
(its the trick many tell, who has either spouse as US/canadian
citizen or himself).
4. Do you have guts to transfer money to Nepali Banks? not,
by selling dollar in black market or by Hundi?
The DCz campaigners should show proof of sending money
to Nepal. Can they? No, the campaigners themselves
have history of indulgement in wrong doings in Nepal
cheating peoples./ cheating govt. I remember one
of the main campaigners of dual citizenship, has cheated
Rs. 1500. per head, when he published an annoucement
in local newspapers for processing US Visa (to those interested).
I forgot his exact name. He was lawyer and his name
repeatedly appears in the campaigners list (in TKP ).
That time he made Rs. 29 lakhs by collecting those
applications and I heard none-got +ve answers.
(That guy had house(?) / residing near Indian Embassy in KTM).

How can you trust those thuggs.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 07:48 PM

Hahoo guru, Darchheruwa , Maila and Biswo jee

Thanx a lot all of you. My concern is dual citizenship for those Nepalese who born in Nepal but naturalised in other countries only not for all ex-Nepalese. According to Maila's posting the bill of dual citizenship is not being passed for anybody who are holding foreign passport. Now I knew the truth. I have still one question in mind.....Is there any possibility of dual citizenship for those who used to be Nepali before they were naturalised in abroad ?

Biswo! thanx for your excellent suggestion of 1 crore investment plan in Nepal for citizenship. At least we have a option about it. My real purpose of this discussion is to find out what kind of role was played in Atlanta (by ANA) for this issue.I'm almost clear about it now.Heartly thanx all of you..

BABU
outraged II Posted on 24-Feb-02 08:01 PM

>If you have intelligent brain in your skull
>you don't have to change your name wherever
>you go.

I have my intelligent brain inside my skull, unfortunately you don't have. Look at the way you put forward your points. No doubt, the NRN status has not moved fast because of people like you. Thanks god you left Nepal (nepali population = -1 Buddhu Ram) and got naturalized in US.

You can get your respects as well as
> wonderful life easily. I'm happy and fully
>satisfied with my name BABU where I'm living
>now.I love my patriotic name.


Babu: patriotic name??? You think so. It's not. Having a patriotic name does not ensure you are patriotic. yu are hallucinating. Get some help.

If you really want to help Nepal and for the start,
do one thing: stop using phone card to call Nepal. Use AT& T so NTC gets some share with the every call you make to Nepal.
outraged II Posted on 24-Feb-02 08:08 PM

A friend of mine came from different
>country got Nepali nationality by paying Rs 1
>0,000 (GHOOS) in front of me. I aslo know
>that Nepali administration is not strict on
>issuing nationality so far.

Dear Babu jee,

Stop thinking about becoming a Nepali citizen or your intention of getting your green colored Nepali rahadani again by investing 1 crore. You will never do that. Rather you will invest that money in the stock market or buy a house here.

dear Babu jee, again you did not learn anything from your freind. Just do as he did. It will be lot cheaper. see the exchange rate for conversion. Roughly less than 150$$. Couple of hours worth of money for you!!!!
outraged II Posted on 24-Feb-02 08:21 PM

.A friend of mine came from different
>country got Nepali nationality by paying Rs 1
>0,000 (GHOOS) in front of me

This Babu Ram guy is an idiot and culprit at the same time. Just imagine a non-Nepali trying to get a Nepali nationality by giving ghoos (less than 150$) just in front of him. Who knows he was the agent.

Biswo nicely reproduced Prithvi Narayan's dibyo upadesh and this Babu guy still proudly writes about his friend getting a Nepali citizenship. Yet he calls himself a patriotic. Shame on you.

Thanks Pashupatinath. Such deshdrohi is out of the country.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 08:58 PM

Outraged jee

Your name is really matching your wild behaviors. Now I came to know your skull is filled with Aloo. Come to your real name so that we can discusse who is stupid and who is flirting to gentle man. Don't think that you're smart and you can do something for Nepal.Forget about it. Learn how to behave others. Learn how to respect others.

PASHUPATI NATHLE YASTALAI BHSHMA GAROS...



BABU
Gandhi Posted on 24-Feb-02 08:59 PM

NO! NO!! NO!!!

No dual citizenship. The impact of this arrangement in Nepali economy, society and politics needs to be quantified. I am sure it will come out to be huge negative amount. It also has qualitative impacts that need to be looked into. Nepal has no other choice but disallow dual citizenship. No further bargain.

Okay, now your personal agenda: why should you worry for that? Do a benefit cost analysis of having Nepali citizenship at the cost of Foreign citizenship. Do the addition and substraction you gain or you lose. Discount for your satisfaction and dissatisfaction added or substracted from the net. That's it, if you are satisfied, and still want to be a Nepali citizen, tear of foreign passport and get Nepali Hariyo Rahadani. If you can't do it, carry whatever color passport you get from foreign nationality.

As Biswo said earlier - To build a 13 crore building for Maiti Nepal, that German citizen didn't need Nepali citizenship. To build a school in Namche area to educate poor sherpas, Hillary's families didn't need Nepali citizenship. To write lots of books to enrich Nepali literature, none of the darjilinge brothers/sisters did require a Nepali citizenship. You are always free to help in Nepal in whatever way you can.

And those who left Nepal for earning more for their own families need dual citizenship? What a joke?........................Pahila buddhi napugera hundi gari gari paisa pathayera Kathmandu ma ghar ghaderi jodiyo, ahile tehi ghando bhayera, haina ta?

For those who had to be naturalized by the circumstances like they were born citizen of certain country, you are always welcome to have Nepali citizenship if you qualify constitutionally.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 10:15 PM

Gandhi jee

My thanx gose to your nice comments.There are advantages as well as disadvatages of dual citizenship. I agree with your posting. I know many Nepali come here for their better life and work hard for thier life , their families lives in back home as well as their future generation.By the meantime they lose their previous citizenship right.They are behaved as foreigners even they born in their motherland.Do you think it is fair for innocent naturalised Nepalese? If you're one of them you feel sorry for not having dual citizenship. It's really heart touching matter for those who are suffering for it.

Gandhi ! let's think positive about it and be hopeful for it in future.

BABU
ashu Posted on 24-Feb-02 10:33 PM

Some background research:

Biswo, I found your

"Any way, Nepal's law says that if somebody invests 1 crore in Nepal, he gets (naturalised) citizenship."

statement very intriguing, in part because I spend a part of my work drumming up
FDI in Nepal and was not aware of it. So, I asked a couple of trade lawyers in town whether they know anything about such an arrangement, and both said no.

Here's what I could glean from: http://www.yomari.net/fips/policy/policy3.html#incentive

Visa Arrangements

***********
A foreign investor will be granted a non-tourist visa for a period of six months to undertake study with the objective of making investment in Nepal. A foreign investor and or his dependents or authorized representative and his dependents will be granted a business visa until his investment is retained. A foreign investor who makes a lumpsum investment of US$ One hundred thousand or its equivalent in convertible currency will be granted a residential visa for himself and his dependents so long as he maintains his investment in the industry.

********************

Of course, I stand corrected if rules/laws to this effect have been changed recently.

On another note, here is this FAQs re: dual citizenbship. Granted that these FAQs applies to situations between US and some other country, some of the underlying points are well worth noting to make this discussion all the more insightful.

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html

******************

Also, see:
http://www.murthy.com/UDdualct.html

Dual Citizenship Possible for Indian Nationals

The Prime Minister of India, Atal Behari Vajpayee, announced on January 8, 2002 that the Indian government had resolved the issue of dual citizenship for Indians living abroad. The announcement was issued after receipt of a report from the High Level Committee on Indian Disporia. The Committee identified the U.S., the U.K., Canada, Australia, New Zealand, a large part of Europe, and Singapore for implementation of dual citizenship.

The Prime Minister noted, "... we are in favor of dual citizenship, but not dual loyalty." He clarified that Indians settled abroad should have loyalty to their countries of residence, and act within their responsibilities as citizens of those countries.

For our many Indian readers of the MurthyBulletin and MurthyDotCom, these changes may come as a welcome relief. The Law Office of Sheela Murthy generally recommends that individuals who are eligible to become citizens of the U.S. should do so. There are many benefits to U.S. citizenship. This matter will be covered separately in future articles. In some instances, family-based sponsorship requires naturalization of the sponsor. It can be emotionally difficult for one to denounce his or her former country of allegiance in order to become a U.S. citizen.

With the Indian government now willing to allow dual citizenship many here will find it easier to choose citizenship in the U.S. – the country they have adopted as their home – while retaining their bonds and ties to the country of their births.

**************

oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 24-Feb-02 11:32 PM

Ashu jee


I personally thank you for providing different web sites which I really need it. I went through all web sites which are very helpful and worthy. It is positive sign that Indian government is accepting dual citizenship for many Indians who live in abroad.I'm hopeful for dual citizenship in Nepal in future. It'll be greatful if you write me when you find any clue regarding this issue in KTM.

BABU
Outraged Posted on 25-Feb-02 12:38 AM

Babu Ram Maharjan wrote:
>>>Come to USA to have first class life. Good luck man.


Comments:
He did accept that the main motive of his migration is nothing but his own personal benefits, easy life…. Babuji, I don’t have to leave Nepal forso called FIRST CLASS LIFE. I am very happy whatever I am getting here.

You are talking about my nick. I kept this name just to tell how outraged I am by you selfishness. Keeping your real name in this discussion doesn’t ensure you are patriotic. If you were real patriotic, you wouldn’t have taken citizenship of USA knowing that you wouldn’t be Nepali no more. Now you want again Nepali citizenship just for saving nominal visa fees, properties division problem and other similar stuffs.

Do you have a little bit shame left??? Could you explain me how you will help Nepal if you regain Nepali Citizen status? Moreover you dont have to be Nepali citizen to help Nepal? Why you are making fu…ing excuses when the reality is crystal clear.

Thanks for inviting me in United States. You don’t have to wish me good luck as if United States is my final destination. I am happy here itself. However congratulation for being American!!! Now please stop crying for dual citizenship, Well, if you really love Nepal as your portraying here, give American citizenship up and welcome home. I will be there in airport to give you red-carpeted welcome if you have guts to do this. Otherwise keep quit. Got it ……I think you understand what I mean to say.

OUTRAGED
Biswo Posted on 25-Feb-02 12:45 AM

Ashu:

Thanks for looking into that matter. I think , around 2046, I read somewhere in
an authoritative place I guess, about that citizenship provision. Will you please look
at the provision for getting 'Angikrit naagarikataa' in Nepal? One of the provisions
for such naagarikataa was the investment of 1 crore rupees. Of course, I can be
wrong, and I will be happy to be corrected.
MCR Posted on 25-Feb-02 08:32 AM

Plain and simple Nepal should allow people who are born in Nepal or even children of Nepali's who have for one reason or other migrated to other nations and taken citizenship status keep their citizenship in Nepal. Nepal doesn't have to recognize them as foreigners, most of these people have left not because they hate Nepal, if circumstance were different they would never have left their beloved homeland. The point I am getting at is when they are in Nepal treat them as Nepali's, disregarding their foreign status, when in Nepal. Far as I know this is what the Americans do, they only recognize you as a citizen of USA; they don't recognize any other citizenship, however they will not impede you from having another citizenship. The key word is "recognize".....Nepal doesn't have to recognize the people who leave Nepal and obtain citizenship outside as foreigners, Nepal doesn't have to recognize their second citizenship, however Nepal should not demand that if they take citizenship in another nation they become foreigners. Circumstance to stay Nepali sometimes dictate that you obtain citizenship in a foreign nation (e.g. Marriage to someone from here as opposed to Marriage to someone from Nepal....if you want to marry someone from Nepal and you are a permanent resident...you have to wait a life time for your bride, only solution is to get a citizenship....)

Nepal has a lot to lose, if she loses people who have settled outside Nepal. For instance it is my understanding that billions of rupees have found their way to Nepal from all over the world via Nepali's outside Nepal. If Nepal doesn't allow flexibility for Nepali's, most of these Nepalese will be lost to other nations, it is not in favor of Nepal to let go its most valuable assets and/or resources, which is her spirited and motivated people.

This is just my opinion and I hope we can discuss this issue in a spirited and non-personal manner.

Thanks

MCR
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 08:44 AM

Outraged jee

Nevermind whatever we discussed eachother earlier. I'm not trying to fullfil my personal benefits by regaining Nepali citizenship. I know what I want to do for my motherland , Nepal. I told you this is a voice of all naturalised Nepalese who lost their citizenship just because of absence of dual citizenship in Nepal. I'm crystal clear that there is no possibility about it in Nepal. But it is just matter of time. Oneday we'll get this right.

As Nepal is our birthplace,it is our privilege to maintain Nepali citizenship. There are many advantages for our motherland when her kids are welcome with highly education , good econonic status and participation on her development freely.Something is better than nothing.Let's roll.

BABU
PURE NEPALI Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:00 AM

WHO CARES ABOUTH THESE THINGS RIGHT NOW, IF U TRULY LOVE NEPAL, DO SOMETHING TO STOP THESE MASCARES IN NEPAL.......DON'T WATCH OUR COUNTRIES BEING DESTROYED ................................U WILL BE MAN WITHOUT ANY COUNTRY BABU. AMERICA WILL KICK U OUT ... THEY HAVE DONE TO JAPANESE PEOPLE IN THE PAST .......THEY ARE DOING TO MIDDLE EASTERN RIGHT NOW.... WHO KNOWS THEY MIGHT DEPORT ALL NEPALESE PEOPLE ALSO. LATER BRO. TAKE CARE
NEPALI
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:25 AM

MCR jee

Thanx for your nice suggestions. I really apppreciate your view. We expect to treat us as Nepali while we're visiting in Nepal. How we feel when we're treated as foreigners in our motherland.

ACHANO KO PIDA KHUKURI LAI THAHA HUDAIN.

As you saying our motherland really needs our help.She needs us we're ready to do something for her.That's all.

Thanx

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:35 AM

Pure Nepali jee

Thanx for your few words. I think you're in frusrtration from American situation,aren't you? Don't worry about it. This type of situation is not first time in American history. It comes and goes as time pass by. As concerned to deportation of Nepalese you don't have to worry about it.American law protects you as well.

I know situation of Nepal is going down day by day.That's why she needs our great help. If she opens her door for us we're ready to something definately.


BABU
PURE NEPALI Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:47 AM

BROTHER, WHEN U OBTAINED FOREIGN NATIONALITY, U ARE NO MORE CONSIDERED A NEPALESE CITIZENS.U LEFT AND BETRAYED NEPAL .AN EDUCATED MAN LIKE U LEAVING THE COUNTRY IN THESE SITUATUION IS AN OPPORTUNISTS, NEPALESE CITIZENS WON'T CARE FOR THOSE PEOPLE.
HERE IS SOME THING FOR U BABU,
GOD BLESS NEPAL, LAND THAT I LOVE,I WILL STAND BESIDE HER,
AND GUIDE HER THROUGH THIS TIME,MY HOME SWEET HOME SWEET HOME NEPAL. OVER ALL,
I REGRET THAT I HAVE ONE LIFE TO GIVE FOR MY COUNTRY.
uzzo Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:54 AM

I think people here are not lobbying for dual citizenship to get around $20 visa fees. It is far beyond that. Babu has some very legitimate points here. Nepali people/people of Nepali origin contributes millions of dollars to Nepali economy (be it directly or indirectly). There are many others who want to invest in Nepal in IT and other sector. These people could benefit from dual citizenship. Majority of people who were born and raised in Nepal and later moved to other countries have some ties with Nepal. They have family ties and have strong sentimental bonding with Nepal as well. There are many who want to contribute in some form or other. So it is not only an emotional appeal but it could also be a sound economic decision.
Saying all that, there are of course some negative aspects to all these as well. Most notable, the influx we could have from neighboring countries. May be this is a strong enough argument to not allow dual citizenship in Nepal. Maybe we can get around this specific problem. I do not really know.
In my opinion, we should at least lobby for some special provisions for People of Nepali origin living abroad. This way at lease they would have easier time visiting, investing etc. in Nepal.
Bill Posted on 25-Feb-02 09:59 AM

The Oath of Citizenship of USA:
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

(Exact wording courtesy of: U.S.)

Enven if Nepal allowed dual citizenship, the Oath of Citizenship disallows dual citizenship under this oath. This means you cannot have dual citizenship if you wish to have US citizenship.
What does the oath mean to you. It means that you, in conscience, you may not have allegiance to another country, (Prince) (King) or otherwise. Your sole allegiance is to the US. Even if it is allowed by another country, it is disallowed in the United States.
Gandhi Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:07 AM

Dear friends

Again I am not clear why would anyone need dual citizenship? What for?

1. Somebody said that families are in Nepal. Okay, go visit them, nobody is stopping you to do it. Pay the airfare, pay visa fee and come back. Don't you pay airfare or car rental to visit Disneyland here in Florida or the beaches in California? The amount you pay here for three day package tour will be enough to pay the visa fee and hotel accommodation in Nepal for 15 days, that to at a foreign status. If you just want to visit your families, your 30 day visa period in the first instance is sufficient for you, isn't it?

2. You are treated as foreign in your own motherland. Why should not be so? So far as you don't follow the constitution of Nepal, you are no Nepali. Our consitution has clear points for the initiation or termination of citizenship rights. I DON'T THINK YOUR FAMILIES ARE TREATING YOU AS A FOREIGN, but it is the consitution that does. Since you have disobeyed every clause there, why should you be treated as Nepali?

3. I have not read the constitution of USA. However, few American friends of mine said they have to return home at least once a year if they are in foreign land doing their duties. How many times those Nepali citizens living abroad return home in a decade to keep the economy going and to show their attachment to their home country?

4. Just crying in loud is no good. Only the emotion that you are not treated as Nepali in your own motherland is no justification for getting it. You have first deserted Nepal for your own good reason. You came to the developing countries, you are lured of the huge financial gain and modern facilities that you decided to naturalize here. You should have done your benefit cost analysis before you decide. It is your personal matter and there is no agreement between you and Nepal (You could have agreement that you would return to serve the country for certain years and you foiled that too).

5. There are big issues in Nepal than this dual citizenship. Be happy in whatever you have gained in your personal life at the cost of just being foreigner in your homeland. Don't show just emotion, show your loyality to the country first.

6 The most important part is what are the benefits to Nepal if she allows you to keep dual citizenship? Our beloved NRN brothers/sisters, please invest some time and money to do some research on this part. Bring forward feasible plans to show Nepal will be benefitted in this way and this much. Do something visible that Nepal would be forced to change its law to accommodate you. In Atlanta conference, did anyone present any reports from studies and any further collective plan in return to their immense pressurized request to Deuba in this matter?

I believe in the notion that nothing is free in this world. You have to pay (bigger or smaller) in whatever form (visible or invisible) to get something in your life. Just DON'T CRY!
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:13 AM

Pure Nepali Jee

Accepting foreign citizenship dosen't hamper his or her real patriotism to Nepal. It dosen't mean that they hate Nepal and escape from there. As they have social ,economical,mental and spiritual ties with their motherland.They can help to Nepal enormously.There is no quetion about it how they're devoted to their motherland than other countries. It is good idea to welcome her kids.....


BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:16 AM

Bill jee

Can you go through to look at dual citizenship in USA?


http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html
def Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:20 AM

Time and again, I have seen debates on this board regarding dual citizenship. I have been following this debate for a while now. One question seems to be unanswered by pro DC movement. How exactly do you plan to help your motherland? Now, don’t tell me that you have established a scholarship fund to help few poor students or helped ‘Bahudaal’ movement. Have you done anything else?

What Nepal needs is investment in business sector, which creates jobs, not another expat building a mansion as a vacation home in Ktm. Till the pro DCs people come up with such ideas, I don’t see any reasons for a change in the constitution.
Narad_Muni Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:23 AM

Narayan! Narayan!
Aaj pata chala.. Naradji se bhi bada batangad aur kohi ho bhi sakta hai. Ye Babu Ram ji ke paas to har ek sawalka jawav bhi hai. Lagta hai iss antar-dhage ka har ek likhan ka tir unhi ke taraf sidhi jati hai. Mey to chala, Mey to har gaya. Aage jo pravooki marji
Narayan! Narayan!
Biswo Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:45 AM

Baburamji:

I neither understand , nor support , the vitriolic statements of Outraged. But I
regret the way you want to lump your 'love to Nepal' and 'your desire to get
nationality' together. Here is one analogy:

A friend of mine used to have an affair with a poor girl from his village. Loved for
probably more than ten years. Later, after being an electrical engineer in NTC, he
married a really rich girl from Narayanghat. The girl from village was ,of course,
heartbroken. However, he sometimes tell me he still loves that girl.

Now, tell me Baburamji, does that matter? He chose the rich girl for his own
benefit. When he had to choose one out of his two choices, he chose one ,
wittingly, willingly, and in a healthy mind. Now, unless he is ready to leave the rich
girl, there is no way he can get that village girl. You can't keep 'rakhauti', and if
you wan tto keep 'rakhauti'(kept girl), it is further humiliation of that village girl.

Now, regarding Nepalese in USA, what do they think is the meaning of 'being
Nepali'? (Just to invest money, Expat Chinese didn't need citizenship, fyi). Are
they willing to send their kids to frontline when war is broken? Come on, most
of them are proud that their kids don't speak Npeali, and their 'gharaayashi
bhaasha' is already English.

I don't say those who live in USA doesn't love Nepal. They love, and they love for
their own cause. They grew up there. I have left Nepal since almost a decade
cumulatively and I miss Nepal so much. But the day I take citizenship(I don't think
so) of another country, I will be prepared to love Nepal as a foreigner.That's what
the constitution of Nepal says.

I rest my case here.
Biswo Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:45 AM

Baburamji:

I neither understand , nor support , the vitriolic statements of Outraged. But I
regret the way you want to lump your 'love to Nepal' and 'your desire to get
nationality' together. Here is one analogy:

A friend of mine used to have an affair with a poor girl from his village. Loved for
probably more than ten years. Later, after being an electrical engineer in NTC, he
married a really rich girl from Narayanghat. The girl from village was ,of course,
heartbroken. However, he sometimes tell me he still loves that girl.

Now, tell me Baburamji, does that matter? He chose the rich girl for his own
benefit. When he had to choose one out of his two choices, he chose one ,
wittingly, willingly, and in a healthy mind. Now, unless he is ready to leave the rich
girl, there is no way he can get that village girl. You can't keep 'rakhauti', and if
you wan tto keep 'rakhauti'(kept girl), it is further humiliation of that village girl.

Now, regarding Nepalese in USA, what do they think is the meaning of 'being
Nepali'? (Just to invest money, Expat Chinese didn't need citizenship, fyi). Are
they willing to send their kids to frontline when war is broken? Come on, most
of them are proud that their kids don't speak Npeali, and their 'gharaayashi
bhaasha' is already English.

I don't say those who live in USA doesn't love Nepal. They love, and they love for
their own cause. They grew up there. I have left Nepal since almost a decade
cumulatively and I miss Nepal so much. But the day I take citizenship(I don't think
so) of another country, I will be prepared to love Nepal as a foreigner.That's what
the constitution of Nepal says.

I rest my case here.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 10:50 AM

Gandhi and UZZO Jee

I agree with both of you. I appreciate your valuable thougts on this issue. As far as I know the dicussion was raised in Atlanta with minister level in Atlanta but no any resonable result was came out.

I also know that Nepal is facing serious problem of terrorits moists rebels nowadays. Our discussion on dual citizenship is only seeking any possibilyin Nepal in future.I don't mean that we have to give priority this recently. When I look at constituion of Nepal it is not allowed anyway. But we are hopeful for this too. We can start doing reaserch on it and find out which is good or bad.

BABU
Ins Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:02 AM

it is time to go home now. get yourself a gun,
buy your self ticket to nepal,
you are gonna have long ride home
you are gonna be deported soon
u no longer belong to usa
u belong to MAOIST.
usa ins
keGarne Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:02 AM

Biswo, Your analogy of your Engineer friend does not work here. Unlike keeping two women, DC actually works!! There are many other countries that actually allows DC. To all you guys who are crying foul over DC, tell me what are the disadvantages of DC? What will Nepal lose by allowing DC to Nepalis living abroad? We are hare to discuss only benifits and problems of allowing DC. Most of you seem to concentrating on why Nepalis living abroad and taking other citizenship does not deserve to be Nepali citizen. I assume most of are living abroad. And all of you who have been living out of Nepal for many years, when are you going back to Nepal? The country needs you NOW!
outraged II Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:02 AM

This is what this “Babu” wrote at different occasions:



>Nepal government gave nationality to thousands of Indians and Tibetans. Which was a great >mistake that everybody knew.

>We are in 21st century.Nepal can't stay on same palce forever. Allowing dual citizenship is a >kind of new step in development.

>Indians and Tibetans, if they got Nepali citizenship,got citizenship not from constitutional way, >and those 'Nepalese who were
>naturalised..' are also free to take citizenship that way

>A friend of mine came from different country got Nepali nationality by paying Rs 10,000 >(GHOOS) in front of me.


This is just an example of what these DC seekers say and do. He condemns the others getting Nepali citizenship by unconstitutional means. But he closed his eyes when crime was being committed in front of him.

Rather he accompanied with his illegal friend to CDO office. Dhikkar cha!!

I now know my head is filled with Aloo (thanx for your nice suggestion) what do say about yourself.
gai BHOTE Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:18 AM

BABU RAM,
U DON'T BELONG TO NEPAL OR USA.

U BELONG TO AFGANSTAN.
SORRY ITS TRUTH.
BYE
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:22 AM

Biswo jee

Thanks for nice comments with example of real story. I'm crystal clear about constituion of Nepal too.There are good side as well as bad side of dual citizenship in Nepal. Naturalised Nepalese have all ties with thier motherland so thier willing to do something is very high. If they are allowed to be citizen there many benefits go to Nepal. As general Nepal is benefitted getting millions of dollars from abroad which is improtant source of her income.This is financial support same way...spiritual, social support too.

I know that those who are ready for naturalisation in abroad should think as you saying but they feel bad when they 're treated as foreigner in their own motherland. At least they should have privilege to stay there freely as they born there that what I mean.


BABU
dodhare Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:28 AM

People choose citizenship coz they gain more benefits than that of permanent residents. Now those who have chosen citizenship for more benefits are lobbying for dual citizenship for extra benefits? Comm on now? why did you loose it in the first place? Do you have a right to ask? The minute you took citizenship from another country, you became foreigner to Nepal and you?ve lost your rights to call yourself Nepali (Of course, you can call yourself Nepali-Americans or whatever you are). I don?t think a foreigner can demand to change the law in Nepal. It?s a matter of debate for our lawmakers to decide whether Nepal can benefit or not if they allow dual citizenship. Our lawmakers who don?t even have a moment to listen Nepali?s burning problems, why should they listen to you? If they do, this should be their last priority.
sunakhari Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:41 AM

Let me take a guess :-
People who have not been in a position to "choose" their citizenships are having a tough time with this request right??
Well I don't blame you - personally, if our country was richer (in terms of money value) than it is now, then the question of whether you are being plain greedy or whatever term people choose to use would arise. But since our country is poor, then the very thought that a poor Nepali would opt to apply for citizenship in another rich (er) country in outrageous to those who view it as being a traitor. Look at those Europeans who have American citizenships.... not even a thought.
Lets look beyond than what meets the eyes.
100%NEPALI Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:41 AM

I TOTALLY SUPPORT YOUR SAYING DODARAA.THESE GUYS ARE OPPORTUNISTS, WANTS TO TAKE BENEFITS FROM ALL THEY CAN FROM WHEREVER THEY CAN.THEY HAVE NO TRUE LOVE FOR THIER MOTHER LAND. IF THEY DID THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BECOME CITIZENS OF OTHER NATION.WHY DO WE LIESTEN TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE DON'T EVEN BELONGS TO OUR NATION.WHY EVEN GIVE THEM A CHANCE IF THEY DON'T EVEN CALL THEMSELVES NEPALI.YOU KICK YOUR OWN MOTHERLANDS TODAY, TOMORROW U WILL BE MAN WITHOUT NATION.WAKE UP BABU, OPEN YOUR.THINK TWICE BEFORE U ACT.THERE IS SAYING OUT THERE IN THE WORLD THAT "IF YOU LOVE YOUR COUNTRY DON'T THINK WHAT U CAN GET FFROM YOU COUNTRY, THINK WHAT U CAN GIVE".
TAKE CARE. NEPALI
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:46 AM

Dodhare jee

Thanx for your view. This is just a dicussion on dual citizenship in Nepal. That's why we are pouring our valuable thoughts on this issue. Nobody is touching constituional law of Nepal. I know how law makers are busy now dealing with situation of Nepal nowadays. My concern is if it is benefit to Nepal we can start researching on this issue. We can show our law makers how important it is for our nation in different aspects.that's all...nothing more than that.

BABU
keGarne Posted on 25-Feb-02 11:48 AM

Dodhare,
Fortunately, that is how life is. One tries to get as much benifits as possible. Why not? Specially if both patries benefits from the transaction. No one is demanding the rights here. We are only discussing the possibilities, the pros and the cons. This might also not be a priority now but it is a legitimate request. Refer to the earlier posting by Ashu. Other countries like India is also considering DC. Again, focus on pro and cons of this issue rather than jumping to call Foreign-Nepali a traitor. If you did not jump at any benefits you were given, you would not be writing in this board.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 12:05 PM

Sunakhari jee

Thanx for your nice guess and comments.We're really sad knowing Nepal ,our country is one of poverty striken countries in the world. There are numbers of factors behind this cause. It is our responsible to find any means to support our country in different fields. That's why I'm thinking if dual citizenship in Nepal is helpful for this purpose we can start talking on this issue.We can raise our voice on it.

What do you think about dual citizenship in Nepal for naturalised Nepali in abroad?

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 25-Feb-02 12:18 PM

Ke garne jee

Thanx for you kind support on this issue. We have to keep our eyes on different opportunities to develop our country.


KUWA KO BHYAGUTO JAHILE PANI KUWA MAI RAHANCHHA.

We can't do that to our nation. We have to seek good things for our country. We have to move froward not backward.

BABU
sparsha Posted on 25-Feb-02 12:58 PM

BRM,

Are you asking for peoples' opinion on Dual Citizenship (DC) or you have already made up your mind and just asking to see how your propensity towards DC is valued?

My question to all those who support DC is WHY? WHY do we need DC? What do we want to do with it?

What we must realize is our southern neighbor is a prettymuch established force in exploitation business. Afu takchhu mudo bancharo takchha ghundo, hola.

Certificate of citizenship isn't the patriotism license.

If BN (bideshi Nepali, or nepali green card) is what you are talking about then that's a different topic.

If someone fights for DC to avoid visa fee to Nepal then that person, obviously, does not love Nepal enough to be a Nepali.

We got to be extremely careful with India. DC liyeka Bharitiya bandhu haruko vote ma jharkhand ko chaman lal yadav or UP ko moinuddin khan Nepal ko PM hola ani k bhayo mangale afnai dhangale bhandai pachhutauna naparos. This issue is vital to our national integrity and sovereignty (whatever is left), in my opinion.
Satya Prakash Posted on 25-Feb-02 05:47 PM

Baburam ji,

Tare maam!

You raised a very pertinent issue. I will try to put down my thoughts. As you can see it, the opinions are divided on this issue. Those who have already acquired a citizenship or planning and/or have the potential to acquire will go in favour of the dual citizenship. But there are those who have no chance or aspiration of getting the citizenship of a country (in North America or Europe or East Asia/Japan), even if they want to, will always oppose it. Among the both groups, I must say that there may be a small number of individuals who either willingly or unwillingly, due to their individual family situation, job/study condition, etc. must return to Nepal and therefore they will not care or speak for the dual citizenship anyway.

The question is why do you want the dual citizenship?

As many have said in their postings that this is merely to avoid the visa fee. There are those, perhaps rightly, who seem to think that this will enable them to nurse their political ambition in Nepal.

However, I have another perspective. There is nothing wrong if a Nepali wants to return to Nepal. People have left Nepal in pursuit of education, better opportunities, etc. In course of their stay abroad, some have taken citizenship of the country of their residence in pursuit of their job, family, etc. I think Nepal should not only welcome them if they want to return and stay in Nepal but even encourage them to return. What is there to fear from their return? It is not just the obvious $ part but the valuable human resources that they bring in will be beneficial to the country. It is not just the donor money that Nepal is used to can bring about the improvements in the standard of living of average Nepalis. It is the experience; discipline and work culture of many years that these expatriate Nepalis (hopefully) bring in can certainly have a positive impact in the society as a whole.

Nevertheless, in my opinion, it is not necessary that such a returnee, for a short or a long time, must be given a dual citizenship.

I think it was Mr. Hada's proposal a few years back that the returnees be given the status equivalent to a green card. One can dread the Immigration Office if you were to apply for a visa through them. A non-resident Nepali (NRN) status similar to the one accorded by India to expatriate Indians living in certain countries would suffice the need. A NRN status should allow you to enjoy all rights (inlcuding owning property, paying local taxes, stay long term, come and go as many times as you like, etc.) except voting and running for a political office. However, those who want to run a political office should first denounce their foreign citizenship in order to be able to reclaim the Nepali citizenship.

A mother will always welcome her offsprings to return home with no condition. Why talk of patriotism and loyalty? A Nepali is always a Nepali no matter where he has lives. What is patriotism anyway? Aren't the Gurkhas made to serve in a foreign patriotic? Just last month, when the country celebrated the Martyrs' day on 29 January, one of the martyrs whose statue was garlanded was none other than Capt. Yagya Bahadur Thapa. Remember him? He was painted and tainted as a traitor only a few decades back.

For some, the issue of dual citizenship or a NRN status could be a matter of sheer jealousy. Could someone interpret the meaning of "Janani janmabhumisha....". If one is to follow its true meaning, then is going to Kashi-baas, in Benares, in the land of Bharat Mata, to spend the part of one's life is a big contradiction.

Baburam ji, sorry I strayed a bit in my thoughts but I hope you will find it relevant.
Biswo Posted on 25-Feb-02 07:11 PM

Satya Prakashji:

Your argument is ridiculous. When you say those who opposed are either not
having green card, or have no chance of getting green card or have nobody
here who have green card, you have devoided your argument of any intellectual
weight by trying to divide all people in two groups in your figment.Your arguments
like the followings:

>A mother will always welcome her offsprings to return home with no condition.

>A Nepali is always a Nepali no matter where he has lives. What is patriotism
>anyway?

etc are just subjective. No, you can't be Nepali if you don't respect her, if you
left her for good , if you renounced Nepali citizenship once. You can still love
Nepal, you can still be good citizen (of your adopted country), and you can still be
a great person. But you can't get Nepali citizenship just with these emotionalism.

I also reject your contention that ' Returning Nepali will provide human resources'.
Give me a break!You can still go there if you want to , with your foreign passport.
Such benevolent people are welcome to Nepal to work and ensconce there. Getting Nepali visa is not difficult.You can get walk-in visa in airport. See, with
Nepali citizenship, if you go back to Nepal, you will be in officer-level position. Now
how will poor Nepal react if you embezzle millions and fly back to your another
country? Can Nepal hunt you down to Indiana, and prosecute you in court here
in Indianapolis?

I reject the way people are trying to appeal emotionalism. In law, there is no
emotionalism. While in Nepal, thousands of Terai basi are having hard time to get
citizenship, how can those educated people who renounced Nepali nagarikata once
claim that citizenship back? My dear friend, Nepali nagarikata is not a cheap towel
that you can afford to throw when you don't need them, and buy again when you
feel it could be useful to you.
ashu Posted on 25-Feb-02 08:21 PM

Biswo wrote:

>I reject the way people are trying to appeal emotionalism. In law, there is no
>emotionalism.

The issues surrounding dual citizenship, patriotism and so on ARE and should be fraught with heated emotions of all nature. I would imagine that a good lawyer or a prudent judge will not get far professionally if s/he avoids or dismisses or makes light of the emotional undercurrents of these and other legal issues.

In other words, contrary to what is being said, emotions do have a lot to tell us about how laws are conceived, formulated, perceived and argued for and against this and that in public sphere. Nepali laws, after all, are NOT inanimate tools that exist in vacuum: they affect the CHOICES that real Nepalis -- from all over --
have to make to lead their real lives.

As an example of what I mean about laws in general, here is one example of the kind of open-ended course they are teaching to student lawyers at law schools in the US:

**********************************
Justice and the Rule of Law Seminar (20248). 2 units. This seminar begins with the assumption that a pervasive feature of our politics and legal system is the "rule of law" ideal. The promise of the rule of law is that adherence to constitutionalism, democratically determined laws, and cooperation with legal institutions and procedures will keep us safe and free.

But is the rule of law truly a guarantor of safety and freedom for all? Using a combination of philosophical, legal, political, and international human rights perspectives on the one hand, and works of literature on the other, this seminar will examine ways in which the rule of law, even when firmly established in a modern society, can fail to keep its promise. The works of literature will be a diverse collection of novels, plays, and stories, including some of these: Antigone, Hrafnkel's Saga, The Merchant of Venice, Jane Eyre, The Scarlet Letter, An American Tragedy, Native Son, and Paris Trout. These texts display the ways in which the rule of law can be "unruly" by virtue of poor legislative or judicial judgment, self-interested non-compliance with law, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, gender discrimination, economic inequality, and race discrimination. Seminar participants may be asked to make a presentation, in addition to writing a paper.
A. L. Allen.
T. 4:10-6:00
Taken from: http://www.law.yale.edu/yls/acad-fall.htm
***********************************************

That said, as a Nepali citizen who shall forever be happy being a Nepali, I
happen to be sympathetic to those ex-Nepalis (whose numbers, in reality, are growing every year!) who now wish to look for ways to reclaim their old
citizenship for WHATEVER legally-valid purposes.

If I were one of them, I would start by closely studying how Non Resident Indians
were/are able to -- after working hard, as a group and as individuals, for many, many years -- to influence the Indian government to give the issue of dual citizenship a serious thought.

Based on this research, I would then devise and implement a strategy to influence Nepali newspapers as a way to reach Nepali public and politicians. I would hold public debates/discussions to better gauge the level of hostility to the proposal, and to learn of ways to disarm the critics without alienating them. I would also brief key lawmakers on the issue and try to get their input, address their concerns in sincere, honest ways by appealing to their self-interest. Of course, it helps to be very, very patient.

It's fine to be an activist and all that, but at the end of the day, a legislative victory is the ONLY thing, only thing that matters.

oohi
(the second last paragraph above is heavily inflenced by "The Unfinished Revolution: How the modernisers saved the Labour Party" by Phlip Gould]
ashu
ktm,nepal
Biswo Posted on 26-Feb-02 12:40 AM

Ashu:

Statutes by their nature are literal and my point was that. I don't rule out the
probability of emotionalism to be played out by lawyers in their courtroom
engagement.I also agree that sometimes statutes are interpreted with prejudice,
specially when affected by divers emotions flaunted in the courtroom.

To return to the issue of DC, well, to me it still sounds like another usual display
of narcissism by Nepali living in abroad. Of course, for a lot of people, it is too
late to realise the gravity of their past decision(of renouncing Nepali citizenship).I
don't think the reversal of their past decision can be done by couching words of
avarice in some grandstanding fancy terms like 'patriotism', 'love of mother land',
and 'pain to have visa for the land we were born'.

I am sure you have attended the seminars of Nepalese in USA. My limited
experiences there have exposed me to the vulgar display of megalomania among
a lot of Nepalese living in USA. Since neither philanthropy(substantial) nor investment was the agenda of most of those people, I was not surprised to
discover that none of Nepalese organizations were , until today, able to make
any substantial contribution to Nepal. Not in providing vaccines, not in providing
substantial educational scholarship etc etc. To say that the noble motive of some
of our fellow (past) compatriots were hampered by their lack of citizenship paper
is plainly ludicrous to me. The major purpose those papers serve is to waive visa
fee for these people, and that is at the cost of national treasury.Anyway what
kind of Nepali patriots are these people who won't go to Nepal because of visa
fee?(Nepali visa are not difficult to get.Tribhuvan Airport has walk-in provision too,
I guess.)

Another question, of course, is : ok, let them get two citizenships. Nepali then will
be able to go back and run for public offices. What happens when someone
absconds with millions of Nepalese money and settle in his another country? Will
Nepal Police indict him , say, down here in Indianapolis? We can't preclude
such situation, we know our country, we know her vulnerability!

This is my point. Hope people will think about it too.
ashu Posted on 26-Feb-02 02:48 AM

Biswo,

Even statutes are OPEN to interpretation all the time. That's what lawyers and judges do: interpret, interpret and interpret statutes and laws -- in their briefs
and in court. And interpretation, by definition, is subjective, subjective and subjective and does allow room for emotion, feelings, judgment, deliberations
and all that.

After all, think about this counter-example: if laws and stattutes were just that -- yielding only to literal meanings -- then why would we need lawyers and law schools? Wouldn't it be much more efficient and effective to have a computer software that does one's entire legal work, sticking, as it will, only to literal meanings of laws and statutes? Why bother with judgment and with complex issues of fairness?

I hope you got my point on this, admittedly a digression.

So, yes, let emotions come into play when we are framing law-related issues,
even AWAY from the theater of a court-room. It's better to accept the roles of emotions and understand them right from the beginning and than to deny
their existence or ridicule them. Law, alas, is not physics.

That said, you seem to question the very motive/intention of those who are here with their DC proposal. You seem not to like "narcissism by Nepali living in abroad".
You sound wary of -- and I quote you -- "couching words of avarice in some grandstanding fancy terms like 'patriotism', 'love of mother land', and 'pain to
have visa for the land we were born'."

Fair enough.

I don't like it either.
And I share your concerns.

But let's be realistic here: since when has it been illegal or immoral to be narcissistic in and about Nepal?

Since when has it been illegal or immoral to "couch words of avarice in some grandstanding fancy terms like 'patriotism', 'love of mother land', and 'pain to have visa for the land we were born'." ?

Just because people do or say things you and/or I do NOT like, or you and/or I are wary of DOES NOT mean that they are being ridiculous or that their proposal is khattam or that they should not have their say, and so on.

We can mean that, of course.
But then, it would be us who are being emotional about the matter, NOT them.
See what I mean?
And you are smart enough to not fall into this sort of trap.

And so, taking a step back, I would argue that another way of looking at the whole thing would be from Nepal's perspective: Would Nepal benefit from such an arrangement? If the answer, after some research and thinking is a yes, even a qualified yes, then I would go for the DC proposal. If it looks like Nepal would NOT benefit from such an arrangement, then I would go against it.

So far, quite honestly, WITHOUT the benefit of research or deep thinking, my intuition/judgement tells me that there are more BENEFITS to Nepal than "ghaataa" from something like this.

I mean, to take one example, so what if some non-resident Nepali tries to save 20 dollars ko visa fee? I'd be more interested to help create ways that make that person spend 200 to 2000 dollars or even more --- buying goods and services while s/he stays/lives in Nepal. Isn't taking a "loss" of 20 dollars small, compared
to the benefits of Nepali economy's "earning" ten to 100 times more from that person's pocket?

So what if some non-resident Nepalis have political ambitions? Let them come to Nepal and spend their dollars doing the campaigning in Nepal -- using, again, Nepali goods and services. There is, after all, NO guarantee that these NRNs would necessarily fare better in Nepali political games, and I can cite examples to
this effect.

So what if some non-resident Nepalis want the DC status for property-related reasons? Slap him with the due tax rates, and collect the revenues. Besides, who knows, that person may make better use of his property -- using it to generate
revenue for himself and for providing jobs, and so on.

Yes, let them use all kinds of metaphors (mother and children)
Yes, let them be narcissistic.
Yes, let them wallow in avarice.
Yes, let them use reverse-patriotism for all kinds of reasons and in all kinds of ways.

That's all fine.

But as long as -- we can formally establish, as India seems to have done for
itself -- that our country Nepal has MUCH to gain from this DC arrangement, then let us cautiously welcome these ex-Nepalis -- educated, knowledgeable, skilled. relatively more connected to other professionals, higher-earning, growing in numbers -- back to their motherland, amongst us.

Both Nepal and these ex-Nepalis will be BETTER OFF through such an arrangement. Or so I think.

oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
Brook Posted on 26-Feb-02 02:55 AM

I am curious to know how Mr. Biswo feels about VDIS.
sparsha Posted on 26-Feb-02 08:12 AM

Satya Prakas,



"Those who have already acquired a citizenship or planning and/or have the potential to acquire will go in favour of the dual citizenship. But there are those who have no chance or aspiration of getting the citizenship of a country (in North America or Europe or East Asia/Japan), even if they want to, will always oppose it. Among the both groups, I must say that there may be a small number of individuals who either willingly or unwillingly, due to their individual family situation, job/study condition, etc. must return to Nepal and therefore they will not care or speak for the dual citizenship anyway."

Please speak for yourself. what you have said here does not apply to me.

What you would do to Nepal and Nepalis if you could get dual citizenship?
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 26-Feb-02 08:35 AM

Satya Prakash Ji

Tare mama Tapailai Pani

Thanks a lot for your posting on this issue yesterday. Your thoughts are really relevant to my internal feelings toward our motherland. I really appreciate your thoughtful expressions. you showed everybody the natural bond between mother and her children.As your saying DC and NRN statues are really beneficial to Nepal.That's true.I'm 100% positive about that. If DC is not good for any country why India is accepting recently. We have to think twice on it before we deny it blindly.


BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 26-Feb-02 09:14 AM

Biswo and Ashu Ji

Thanks a lot both of you pouring valuable thoughts on this DC issue.

I want to point out Biswo's last point in his latest posting. You know very well about econonomic status of Nepal and other foreign countries. There is huge different in per capita income( Nepal has$ 220 and USA has $ 32000 PCI) . Naturalised Nepalese who are seeking for DC do not need to cheat millions of Rs from their motherland and hide in Idiana or Indianapolis. Instead, millions of dollars go to Nepal for different aspects of developmental purpose if Nepal has DC system. There is no doubt about it.

As your saying $20 visa fee which Nepal will lose if DC is allowed. Why don't you look $200 or $2000 expenses from DC holding Nepalese as Ashu saying in his post. We all aware that her economy is rely on foreign aids. It is the best way for Nepal to improve her economic stauts by welcoming her kids with highly education, skills, good economic status,good experiences ..etc. I think DC will be one of main pillars of her ecomony .

One thing I want to highlight here is our neighbor country India is accepting DC.This means it is good idea to intiate this issue in Nepal too.

BABU
Canadian_Nepali Posted on 26-Feb-02 10:08 AM

Outraged and Outraged II,

I think you guys are outraged because your Lottery Visa Application didn't come thru...:-)

I think people generally tend to do things that would benefit themselves. You guys sound like you're following in the footsteps of Mother Theresa. I live in Canada not because I hate Nepal but because I have a good job here and I really enjoy my lifestyle. On the contrary I love Nepal. I promote Nepal to whomever I can by talking about the wonderful experiences I've had growing up.

How would DC benefit me? I don’t care about the measly $30 visa fee, which is half hours pay for me. The intrinsic reward is that I wouldn’t have to deal with the Visa people at least once a year and I get to keep my Nepali passport and tell people I’m also a Nepali instead of “originally from Nepal”. I know there are other benefits like being able keep property in Nepal and Tax breaks at customs, I’ve got enough property to worry about here. I spend about $5000 every time I go to Nepal excluding airfare. That I believe is quite a bit of wealth added to the Nepalese economy. Who knows, maybe when I retire I would like to live in Nepal and still be able to travel to and maintain my property in Canada.

With or without DC, I feel like I’ve contributed well to the Nepalese economy. I am tired of people referring to us as betrayers of Nepal. Am I an economic opportunist? Yes. Have I helped Nepal in the process? I certainly think so. How much have you pumped into the Nepalese economy?
Ranjan
def Posted on 26-Feb-02 10:40 AM

Do you need DC for the following reasons?

1. To get your share of Anksa-banda? (Believe me, there are few people I know who have decided to stay away from an American passport for this reason) If you fall into this category, please let your siblings in Nepal have all the “Anksa”. After all you are earning in $$, remember?
2. To avoid visa fees? One pays roughly $1300 in air ticket and another grant or so for gifts for the relatives, why can’t you pay $20 as a gift to Nepali rajaswo? Just by cancellation of visa fees won’t attract NRNs to visit Nepal frequently. In another note, if one can spend $2000 during their stay, what is the harm paying $20 visa fee?
3. To transfer your wealth? Can’t you transfer money without DC for your beloved Aama, Buwa and siblings? To own a property? Why do you need to own a property for a visit once in a three, four or five years. If you can’t adjust to a nepali bathrooms in your parents old house, stay in a hotel or renovate the bathroom. (Believe me I have heard this) Contribute to the local economy.
4. To invest in business sector? Now you are talking. On a sad note though, I haven’t seen any NRNs investing in businesses in Nepal to create jobs yet. Please enlighten me if there are any. To get the public and the government opinions on your side, you have to prove to them that DC does not harm the country, instead helps. Talk is cheap. Put your acts together and show it to them that NRNs can contribute to the local economy. Till then there will be skeptics around like me.
keGarne Posted on 26-Feb-02 10:42 AM

Ranjan, I agree with you. People who have opposed DC here have not presented any valid argument against DC. All they have said is they are not Patriot and all that Crap. Which is not true at all. One thing is for certain. Most people who are in a position to get naturalized or already naturalized and others who are not in that situation/stage, are certainly going to have conflicting opinions. I do believe that DC offers many economic benefits, especially to a country like ours. Also, the reason I want DC is not the $20 visa fees. This seems to be only argument coming up against DC. $20 is not even an issue here. Charge more for DC for all I care. The reason I want DC is because, I want to go to Nepal and stay there as long as I want to, without the hassle of having to renew the visa every few weeks. I want to own some property in Nepal. I want to invest some money in Nepal. I want to be able to move to Nepal whenever I feel like it. I own property there I do not want to lose or sell. And what is wrong with that?
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:04 AM

Ranjan and ke garne Ji

I agree with both of you guys.

Mr.Def you can get answer of his question from your postings

thanx.

BABU
sunakhari Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:26 AM

I absolutely agree with Canadian Nepali and Ke Garney.

Personally, those intentions sound sane. 99% of us are here for better job opportunies etc. There is no denying that! If given a choice, would we go back home and work there for the same amount of money?? Let me hear one answer in the negative. (obviously, this is not a question for those who have yet to understand the economic differences and the differences in job diversification).

If what you allege is true and that most people are being unpatriotic by staying back here and getting citizenship here or elsewhere for that matter, then SHAME ON ALL OF YOU H1B visas, you should be going back to Nepal and working your hineys off to uplift Nepal after your graduation!! (for those toucy feely folks, I know I'm generalizing).
Why is it taken so negatively for an American Nepali to have some land and house(s) back home when we don't feel threatened by the purchase/donation of some foreigners? Anything a white-skinned person does is not bad. Its when a Nepali shows good intention thats questioned. GOSH PEOPLE!! WAKE UP!
keGarne Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:50 AM

Def, How many people do you know whose main purpose to get a DC is to get their share of Anksa-Banda? How many people do you know who wants to get a DC to own a property in Nepal they can?t shit in their parents old house? I am not saying there isn?t anyone like them, but I am saying, there are only a few. See, the point here is, Nepal would probably benefit economically from DC but that might not be the case for the people lobbying for DC. If anything, people want DC for personal and sentimental reasons. If I were just looking for economic advancement, I would have cared less. Even though NRN?s have not invested in big industries/businesses in Nepal there are many who have done it in smaller scales. I still own some Shares/Stocks back in Nepal. I have lost some money on it and could have invested the same money elsewhere but I chose to keep it in Nepal. I cannot invest in larger scale businesses because I cannot afford to now; but I do what I can. Next year, I am also planning to sponsor some underprivileged kids to study in Nepal. The point here is you do not have to open a NGO or a big business to show you care for Nepal. Small things matter as well. Beside, most of us are not millionaires here. Also, Biswo pointed out before that people who run for office could absconds with millions of Nepali?s money and settle in another country, they do not really have to do that. As we all have seen, many politicians are doing just that right now, without ever having to leave Nepal. Besides, I think it would be easier for people to abscond millions form a foreign land and disappear to Nepal rather than the other way around. What say you?
outraged Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:52 AM

Reply to Canadian_Nepali(Not Nepali).

I did not expect that you would do personal attack. First time I came to know there is special kind of lottery visa exists. I am outraged from your selfishness. For your kind information I am satisfied in Nepal and I never think to migrate. I am happy what I am getting here.

You asked me how much I have pumped into Nepal economy?????

How much I am doing for my country can’t be compared with I much I am making or paying tax. You are spending 5000$ per year to visit Nepal. Perhaps I couldn’t make that much in a single year. If you compare everything in $$$, I would say you love Nepal than more than I do. If this analogy works, I have seen lot of tourists who spend more than 20,000$$, now I will again say they love more than you do. $$$ is not yardstick to measure how much you are doing for country. You are trying to say businessman is more patriotic than that solider who accepts death to save country.


I have nothing to say about your personal things. How much you are making, how is your life style, how much you spent when you visit Nepal. BUT YOU CANNOT SAY YOU ARE HELPING NEPAL BY SPENDING 5000$$ WHEN YOU VISIT TO NEPAL……YOU ARE SPENDING MONEY FOR YOURSELF, …. NOT FOR NEPAL….IF YOU REALLY WANT TO HELP NEPAL, DONOTE THAT TO SCHOOL RATHER THAT SPENDING THAT MUCH MONEY FOR YOUR LAVISH LIFE WHILE YOU ARE IN NEPAL. ARE YOU ABLE TO DO THAT, OF COURSE NOT.

I have seen people are crying for Dual Citizenship telling that they would invest in Nepal. Investing in Nepal doesn’t require citizenship. As you told me that, you require citizenship just to avoid legal hassle to renew visa. Canadian ( Not Nepali no more) this is law. As a foreigner we can’t allow you to break this law. Another my humble request is don’t come to Nepal to spend retired life. Now you are spending all your brain and energy for Canada for $$$$ ( as you told visa fee of Nepal is half hour pay). Aba marne bela ma budo ani kaam na lagnee sharir leyreaa marna chaina na aaunu hola…..hamro binti cha….

OUTRAGED
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:53 AM

Mr Def

I know your question is reasonable. I appreciate your views too. Tell me why USA, Canada and India accept DC? Do they think about any harm on it? Sure they do but they consider DC is really improtant for national development. My concern here is not only for personal property,visa fee and small amount money trasfering but also huge economical support from DC. If naturalised Nepalese in abroad regain thier privilege from their motherland millions of dollars will go to in Nepal which will be a part of national budget. First of all the door shoul be open for them freely then there is no doubt about huge investments for motherland. if the door close for them how you expect from them. Their willing to do something for their motherland is really depends on DC. Welcome them and we'll see our motherland's bright future.

Mr.sunkhariji
I agree with you too.Thanx for your nice opinions.

BABU
gaunle Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:56 AM

Babu Ram and friends,
There is no question that you guys have a strong feelings for Nepal and Nepalese. Nepal is the home for all Nepalis. You guys can come home anytime you feel like as there is no tracking system. Some of you guys raised the issue that Nepal can benefit from your investment. We all know the fact that there are hardly handful of Nepali people aboard who could claim themselves as millionaires. Those millionaires have not yet started investing in Nepal. That may be because of the high risk or whatever. Don't blame you. So it's not worth talking about impact in economy for now. Nepal gets least amount of money from Nepalis living in the US. Please correct me if I'm wrong... I read this in a newspaper a couple of years ago. More money is/was coming to Nepal from Arab countries where most Nepalis do labor work. Another fact is that most people I know here in the US have Permanent Residency (PR) status rather than citizenship. So it's very important to know what % of Nepalis residing aboard have aquired citizenship from another country. This number matters if you guys are dead serious about DC. If you are just surviving in the US and waiting for your retirement to back home, please don't compare things with India or other countries. There are very few people who entered the US in the 70's or 80's. When time comes I'm sure authorities from Nepal will resolve this issue. In the mean time spend your time creating your network, gather facts and other data that will convince authorities in Nepal. Right now, it seems DC is your preference... And I have strong reasons not to be jealous with you guys :)
sally Posted on 26-Feb-02 12:06 PM

Hear hear!

Reason Number 5: Some people would like to be able to go to Nepal and work at something interesting (which in some cases might also happen to be good for the country) without the fear of ending up a bitter old guy running a little school and lamenting to all and sundry, like a broken-down prizefighter in a black-and-white movie, "I coulda been a contender."

Or the fear that, if things got really really rotten, they'd be stuck in Nepal till someone chopped off their head, and there last thoughts would be, "I should have stayed in America."

People with dual citizenship would be free to use their well-trained energies in Nepal without fear. If things work out, great. If they don't work out, or you miss home-delivered pizza too much, then OK, you go back to the land of Mastercard and mortgages and join the suburban commuter crowd.

Dual citizenship means having a choice. Not having dual citizenship means status quo. And another name for the status quo is brain drain.

Why do people think all those brains that get to America end up getting sucked down a big ol' SUV-sized drain? Is it really cuz a lifestyle of Safeway, Domino’s, and life in the fast lane–excuse me, I mean life in traffic jams--is so utterly irresistable?

Nope. Folks get to the US and figure this is their only chance. Even if they think they might make a good life in Nepal, “might” is a scary word. The risk isn’t worth it–because without dual citizenship, when you jump, you jump. If the water freezes your hiney off (to use Sunakhari's phrase), too bad. You’re probably stuck.

But dual citizenship is a ladder that goes both ways. (Or a bungee cord, if you will :-) ) With dual citizenship, a certain percentage of those expensively trained brains might actually decide to give it a try for a while.

It's true that the rupees of some rich, propertied families might also drain away to the US. But it's not as if the law that try to keep those rupees in Nepal has made such a big exciting difference to the country up to now. Adding another way for money to float away is going to do WHAT, exactly? Make Nepal the poorest country on earth? Oh sorry. It's already gotten there.

But some other wealth--in the form of brainpower--might actually come back, too, if dual citizenship was a possibility. And that type of wealth DOES make a difference.
Biswo Posted on 26-Feb-02 12:09 PM

Ashu:

Ok, let's leave the legal things. When you say about all those good things possible
from having Nepalis from abroad,I think you are not (as you admitted) calculating
the loss possible from such moves.See, I feel that you are virtuous fellow, and
certainly think about Nepali welfare, so I don't doubt your intention when you
support , qualifyingly, the DC move.But all aspects of this move should be
thorougly scrutinized, as you said.

For others, I am not saying those who are foreign citizens don't love Nepal. Let's
not erupt in conniption of anger, ok. I am objecting to the arguments given by
these proponents. When we go back, some one says "If other foreigners can
earn money in Nepal, why not we?", evidently referring to Indian businessmen. But
once you renounce your Nepali citizenship, you are also a foreigner.You should ask
for more investor-friendly laws in Nepal. We need investment from everybody. But
since Nepali abroad know more about Nepali terrain and rules, they are more likely
to be successful if they invest in Nepal. Just like immigrant Chinese are the majority
of investors in China.

A gentleman says he spent 5,000 (canadian/us? dollar) when he went to Nepal. Well, when my mom came here in USA last year, she spent more than that. I have
seen a lot of foreigners who went to Nepal spending more than that. Some spend
less than that. The expense, even if I believe they were all spent in Nepali market,
doesn't justify your demand of citizenship.Let's be rational. He says "I want to own
property in Nepal." Well, I want to own property in China. I have spent $$
travelling to China in the past. Does that give me any right to be Chinese citizen?

Another thing is you don't have to renounce citizenship when you have green card.
And green card allows you to work here as long as you want. So why was that
citizenship thing taken?

When Amartya Sen won Nobel prize, I was surprised to find he was still Indian. I
think people choose citizenship deliberately. So, they have to understand that
some decisions are irrevocable.

In this era in Nepal, where poor people of Nepal are betrayed by everybody, when
MPs/Chief justices pass laws to waive themselves of import tax of their imported
goods, when ministers increase their sallary themselves, it wouldn't be surprise
if this law is passed without any public discussion/referendum over it. But frankly,
this decision will only be continuation of long standing tradition of Nepal:
subservience to powerful, and subjugation of suppressed.
sally Posted on 26-Feb-02 12:09 PM

Btw my "hear hear" is specifically for Sunakhari et al. Gaunle made some interesting points too, but I didn't see her/his post before I wrote mine.
def Posted on 26-Feb-02 02:11 PM

I want to make one thing clear. I do not believe that acquiring citizenship of another country is unpatriotic. My main issue is why should Nepal allow DC. India has recently agreed to allow DC. It took years of work on the part of NRIs to convince the Indian govt. They, NRIs, lobbied for it and showed in real life situation how they could help. They invested in India, not only in business sector but also in agriculture, education and others. Like NRIs, NRNs need to come up with some structured plans, show us all skeptics how you all can help. NRNs may not be able to invest in a large sum or make an impact right away. Nevertheless they should start taking a small step towards it. Talk the talk and walk the walk. I have been reading here that millions of dollars will flow in to Nepal once the DC is allowed. I won’t mind learning how it will happen though.

For 'ke garney', I have invested small amount of my income in Nepal too and spend quite a big amount of money while visiting Nepal and also providing scholarships on my own to few children every year. I have not acquired US citizenship as of yet. Once and if I decide to acquire an American passport, I don’t think it will hamper my willingness to invest and help in Nepal. Speaking for myself, it won’t bother me at all if I can’t own a property in Nepal. What am I going to do with a property that I won’t be using it anyway?

Whenever we talk about DC, we have to consider Nepali living in the countries other than western world too. How about Nepali living in India, Thailand and Burma? Do we discriminate against them based on their income? Aren’t they as much Nepali as you and I are? Now, don’t tell me that Nepali Indian can work and live in Nepal so they don’t need citizenship. How about owning a property? How about voting rights? Can Nepal endure such a social, political and economic impact?
Satya Prakash Posted on 26-Feb-02 04:46 PM

Dear Biswo-g,

Thanks for your emotional reaction. There must be something in my rambling thoughts that really touched your chord to deserve such a strong reaction; nevertheless you do have a view which I don't necessarily accept but I do respect it. As I realize that I had said many things at one time and thus I may have strayed a bit on my thoughts. However, it appears you've dumped out everything I had said. Because the subject being discussed was dual citizenship, I sort of moved the discussion towards something like NRN status as a first step. I am not yet convinced about the need and utility of the dual citizenship. Since your response to my posting, I saw a long chain of postings that may or may not have responded to some of your thoughts and queries. I still feel it is the 'human resources' aspect that we ought to pay attention to, not just the $ only. Furthermore, I don't see anything wrong being a narcissistic but Ashu seems to have hit the final nail on this, so, no more questions on this from me.

Anyway, as we all learn more every time and grow up as our needs grow, it will be interesting to see in a few years if we all hold the same view as time changes.

My best to you. Keep posting your thoughts.

Emotionally yours,

S. Prakash

Also thanks to Baburam-g for your response to my posting. It is good to have a healthy discussion.
Destitution Posted on 26-Feb-02 05:52 PM

Hi all,

These questions are for those people who want to have DC in Nepal.

Why do you want to go back to Nepal for making jealous most DESTITUTE people in the world?

Why do you want to jeoperdise your future?

Take a look that Nepal has $177 (decreased in 2001) per capita income and inflation is going on rapidly. There is a huge trade imbalance and BOP is negative at a larger figure. No one has obligation and responsibility for building up a nation.

sabai lai chetana vaya......
Biswo Posted on 26-Feb-02 06:30 PM

Satyaji:

Take it easy , ok. All I want is people not to categorize others hastily. I didn't mean
to be 'emotionally opposed' to your argument. You have your view, I have my
view. We can differ, and I guess that is why we need to have discussion here.

All I want to know is how can a poor country 'invest first' (by waiving visa fee, and
by granting a lot of other tax breaks etc etc) on a bunch of people, who
intentionally renounced their citizenship earlier. To work in USA, greencard is
enough, and you don't have to renounce citizenship. So these people went a step
further, and deliberately. So, onus is on them to prove that their return will
benefit 'greatly' the nation of Nepal.

I don't know how will poor people of Nepal react to such legislation either. To
digress little bit, the government was quick to remove subsidy on fertilizers, and
now rice production in Nepal is taking a toll. Just because foreign based Nepali
can speak loudly doesn't mean their issue is the most important for Nepal.You
know, for years, there is a general resentment among agrarian sectors that
the government in center is inherently composed of a groups who don't care
about them. The rebels in west have only partly cashed in on that resentment.
The situation can only worsen with this new provision, unless of course, such
benefit are clearly shown to public.(by any research, data or whatever means!)

Someone here said 'Why would US based Nepali embezzle millions rupees in Nepal?'
I think such question only reveal lack of seriousness on their part. The most
jarring embezzlement of present day China are orchastrated by returned Chinese
(hau qiao). Frankly,A few millions of rupees is a lot of money, and there can be
some Nepali in USA, who will take benefit of such dual citizenship.

When I refute, it is not attack on posters/propents of DC. (If we
never differ, we don't need discussion) . It is some of their views that I find
vacuous, and refute them. Some people(not you, of course) are evidently
impatient with dissenting views, and quickly , wittingly or unwittingly, go on to
resort to vulgar display of their personal unauthenticated past/present. That
doesn't serve as a proof here.They also can't convince others here.

Have a good day.
Nepe Posted on 26-Feb-02 11:52 PM

This thread has become a great show. Thank you, Babu Ram Maharjanji, for becoming an untiring initiator/host/participant/campaigner etc. Although this topic keeps popping up sporadically, this time it has become the longest thread in a very short period. I thoroughly enjoyed reading veterans as well as new posters, especially Biswo, Ashu, HaHoo, Bill, Gandhi, MCR, Suna, Canadian_Nepali, def and Sally.

Here is my own 2 cents. Actually I am going to try to sell a zillion dollar dream. A dream of glorious future of Nepal. And yes, you rightly guessed me. I am damn pro-DC.

Here are my thoughts.

The fact that several countries are allowing dual citizenship tells us that DC works. And the best news is that the globalization of the world is speeding up day by day and there is nothing on the way strong enough to stop it. Archaic have become the days we should worry about DC as being an 'ambiguous allegiance or a divided loyalty' of the citizens endangering the sovereign interest. C'mon folks, if others can do it, we can do it. If they are doing it, there must be good reasons for it. Whether we should do it or not should be based on whether Nepal benefits from it or not. Period.

Even if DC amounts to rewarding those who 'betrayed' Nepal, if Nepal benefits from it, Nepal should allow it.

And taking a foreign country's citizenship is not a pure betrayal. It is not analogous to what Biswo's Engineer friend did, marrying a rich city girl by betraying the poor village girl. Even if it is so, I am going to argue that
it is a pure denial to deny that the Engineer does have feelings for the
village girl. In addition, I argue that it will be injustice to keep the
village girl in agony of betrayal rather than helping her to develop the
understanding to accept the reality (what made the Engineer marry the other
girl) and move forward, not wearing an armor of denial, but being so much
strong and independent that she can even cherish love (however suppressed)
the Engineer still feels for her.

I bet on the Engineer's love to the village girl, because love never dies.
Parijat said somewhere, 'Love does not die, you have to kill it'. What she
really meant is, even if you kill it, it does not die. So you have to
pretend that it died. And of course, you can bury it. But it remains alive
inside the coffin. It is up to us to believe what is what.

That Engineer's marriage to the city girl does not kill his love to the
village girl (if indeed he loved), it just buries it inside the tomb of his
heart.

In addition, the difference between that love and the emotional connection of NRN to Nepal is that the later can be cashed without feeling embarrassed or shame. We live in a commercial world where nothing is impious. The only thing that
is impious is what keeps us poor.

To be wise or to be emotional, that may seem to be the question. But it is
not. The question is to be wise to be able to take emotion into account and
cash it.

In this thread, pro-DC camp is basing it’s arguments on economic contribution (immediate or potential) of dual citizens while anti-DC camp is basing it’s arguments either on their skepticism or on their resentment against dual citizens both of which qualify as emotional arguments. A clear cut division of public perception on the topic along economy vs. emotion dichotomy. Folks, lend me your attention. I have got a bridge. A grand bridge, amounts to a ‘grand design’.

Among many painful realities of Nepal is that it is a SMALL country, it is a LAND LOCKED country, it is a RESOURCELESS country, all of which unmistakably shape a national psyche of surrendered inferiority complex. We have accepted this as our fate and we have stopped dreaming. Actually we stopped dreaming a long time ago. Our dream committed suicide in GosainKunda together with Amar Shingh. Since then we have never dreamt. How can we in right state of mind and current state of the country can dream ? We are a tiny country surrounded by giant India. We have no access to sea of trade, opportunity and hope. Right ?

Well, may be not. Let me put it briefly. By dual citizenship we can build a world wide virtual nation of Nepal that extends from Darjiling, Sikkim, Burma to Europe and North America. I know what the skeptics are going to say about it. They will say No, there will be a massive immigration to Nepal beyond its capacity or this or that. I say look at Israel which allows dual citizenship. The number of NRI (non resident Israeli) is several times more than the resident Israelis and they are scattered all over the world. And it is no secret that the real strength of Israel is these dual citizens. You may say we can not compare Nepal to Israel. I say you are only limited by your imagination.

Folks, DC is our sea, DC is our oil, DC is our Dollar, DC is our land several times larger than the map we have shown until now. DC is our passport to a powerful and glorious future that is in our reach. Lets own it.


Nepe
Roma... Posted on 27-Feb-02 01:10 AM

I am very glad to read very differnent oppinions about DC ranging from extreme pro-nationalist views to wide globalisation of human movements in this forum. I am really greatful to the Mr. Babu Raj Maharjan who initiated this topics. Thank your Mr. Babu Ram for your interesting and very appropriate topic.
I am really thinking a lot about this DC issue lately because of numerious reasons. Hope somebody can suggest me while this discussion is going on. I came in this country in imigrant visa( work sponsor) almost 5 years( by this feb) as an engineer.
I have been working in top 10 furtune company from 5 years. This coming september I will be eligible to apply US citizenship. During my 5 years of stay in this country, I did my doctorate in engineering. Today, I am 29 years old and before moving to USA, I did work in Nepal in my profession for 2 years.
If I apply for US citizenship, I can work for US state and federal goverment( which I am planning to do if I get my US citizenship). Moreover, my profession is defense related , that is why I went through numerious hassels like security and backround clearnence. If I don't, I will never able to work for US government which I always use to dream. In last 5 years I saved some money ( almost 6 digits numbers cash in my personal checking account currently), which I have always thought to spend or do somethings in Nepal very soon in near future. I have never thought even in my widest dream to spend that money in USA. As far as I know, Still Nepal has only some kind of long term visa provision in law for foreigners, who want to do business in Nepal. Now my question is how can I invest that money in Nepal( the place where I was borned) without being a second class citzen( like foreigners).
Thank you in advance for your generious feedback.

Feedback seeker,
Roma.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 01:49 AM

Biswo Ji

I'm really glad with your logical responses on this topic. Let me tell you about disadvatages of holding green card only.Yeah you can work as well as enjoy your life having green card here. But you'll be one who is unlucky person losing your social security tax , Medicare,Medicaid, participation in politics , government jobs and all other citizen rights even you spend 20 years here. You can't raise your voice here. you have to shut your mouth up forever here. You have to do whatever US government ask to do. Who knows you will be first who'll be deported only having Green card. My meaning to say here is accepting citizenship is to protect your rights here. The rights which are provided as being citizen here can be used for our motherland's bright future too. For this purpose what we need is DUAL CITIZENSHIP in Nepal. Do you think green card holders are sufficient for Nepal ? The answer is NO..No..




I'm also concerned about your saying millions of ruppees embezzlement from Nepal. I do not agree with you on this concern. There is no any guarantee that naturalised Nepalese will embezzle Rs from Nepal. Why do they need money from Nepal? Chinese example will not apply to Nepal. But there is high potency of dollar flow to Nepal.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 02:08 AM

Ramaji

Thanx for your thoughts.Your concern in your posting is your willing to invest in Nepal as non foreigner. But once you're naturalised in USA you will treated as foreigner even you born there. This is why DUAL CITIZENSHIP is essential to maintain our citizenship. You can invest in business in Nepal but you have to pay tax as foreigner and you can't own properties personally. I heard NRN (non resident Nepali) status in Nepal.Its treatment is like foreign. We havt to fight for Dual citizenship for our right which our neighbor country India accepted .

Your job as being naturalised here is welcome everywhere.There is no any problem about.

BABU
_BP Posted on 27-Feb-02 02:14 AM

I think citizenship goes beyond economics and law. It is a pledge of allegiance. It means through thick or thin, you are a member of the society you live in, and you will share in the privilege and sacrifice with every other fellow citizen. Being a citizen of two different nations is an oxymoron, for how can you pledge your allegiance to two different countries? Perhaps people have different interpretations of the word citizenship, but to me the bottom line that defines this word, and at the same time cuts through a lot of fluff, is that you are willing to lay down your life on the line for your country. You would do so for your family, or your loved ones if it came to it (wouldn't you?). You have but one family. It doesn't matter if theoretically it would be mutually beneficial if you had more than one "family" or "country,"...it is just not possible. Your loyalty can only be singularly given to one nation. You make your choice and respect it. If you don't have a country you are willing to die for when it needs you, you are not a citizen period.

So it sure would be nice to be able to help people everywhere, fraternize with people everywhere, share the wealth, be treated as family everywhere, keep in touch with yor roots, maybe even benefit yourself while you are doing so, but being a "citizen" of two different, separate, distinct, discrete nations is in my mind, simply impossible. There may be special arrangements, privileged status, etc such as permanent residency, but not dual citizenship. As I stated above, to me this is an oxymoron. I am sure no one would buy into a triple-citizenship...or would they?
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 02:22 AM

Nepe ji

Thanx a lot for your logical and valuable opinions on this issue. I really appreciate your expressions in your posting. Your example of Israel is enlightening the essence of dual citizenship in Nepal for futher development as well as expanding its strength.

I strongly support your saying...DUAL CITIZENSHIP IS OUR EVERYTHING..let's own it.

BABU
ashu Posted on 27-Feb-02 02:38 AM

Hi Roma,

The challenge in Nepal is to FIRST have a series of investor-friendly laws and
see those laws through some implementation.

We have such laws, yes; but my informal talks with some members of the Foreign Investors Forum have been sort of depressing, especially when they tell you about the PREVENTABLE and COSTLY hassles they still have to go through to
get their businesses running.

So, in the next few years, I see that this is where our investment bankers, our venture capitalists, our financial economists, our corporate lawyers and even our public activists (who say they look out for consumers/investors ko interests) -- from both in and out of Nepal -- have to come to some sort of agreement with
our lawmakers re: just what, in what form and shape and size, these investor-friendly laws are going to be.

This is a role we can play -- either as individuals or as groups. And while doing so, we can also learn from the examples of other countries and other economies.

This way, once the laws are there, then, investors can come in with EYES WIDE OPEN, and will be well aware of their risks and rewards and there will be few hidden/surprise costs.

Right now, sadly, as things stand, most investors -- unless they have some financially irrational love for Nepal, like their Nepali wife adamantly refusing to leave Nepal or that they cannot start their career anywhere else now -- are
likely to stay away from Nepal.

Investors, whether Nepali or others, let us not forget, do NOT like risks.

So, stay where you are now. Let your savings accumulate. Meantime, continue to monitor Nepal ko investment situation closley.

There WILL be a market upturn in Nepal; the sun WILL come out -- and just pray that all that will startl happening soon in Nepal. That way, at the right time, your money will go a long way in Nepal.

Of course, I am assuming that you are not trying to invest on defense- and security-related businesses in Nepal right now. If you are, then, for such businesses, now is the finest time to make money.

oohi
ashu
ktm,nepal
HahooGuru Posted on 27-Feb-02 02:59 AM

I got Hahoo!DC.

The first guy to publish 100th posting in this forum. I am really
Hahoo!ligan.
HahooGuru Posted on 27-Feb-02 03:08 AM

I got Hahoo!DC.

Hahoo!ligan haru ko Jaya Hosh!

Lets Hahoo! Its the beginning of Sajha.com,
I guess it will remain of the main issue among
ex-patriate Nepalis, and will be lasting. Nepe
being half-Maoist supporter, supports DC issue.
The NRN campaigners should include peoples like
Nepe if they want to make their points reach to
public. Tarro Nationalism or patriotism does not
work, and the reasons given by these NRN campaigners
is too rough and not really convincing. Nepe has
some valid arguments, and I was happy he did not
bring King in between D-C. The NRN campaigners
should illustrate where the current system does not
help them? Is it just plain nationalism or visa fee waiver
or Ansa Banda Problem or Hundi gari gari banako
ghar is ghado to get citizenship abroad . . .. . . .

Lets keep on discussing.

Hahoo! World of Nepalis.
HahooGuru
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 03:29 AM

BP ji

Thanx for expressing your feeling toward DC. I don't blame you as you take meaning of DC as oxymoron. But I don't agree that just because of your sentimental feelings oppose to DC. We feel so but we have to fulfil as time demands. Number of naturalised Nepalese are increasing day by day in abroad. If they're welcome to their motherland she (Nepal) will be much more beneficial to it(DC) certainly.
Read Nepe's posting. why Isreal welcome DC? Sameway USA ,Canda and India..
Do you think people from these countries are not patriotic? sure they feel patriotism more than we do. They just accepted DC for development in different fields as well as to expand their map.

BP! accepting two citizenship doesn't lessen what you really want to do your motherland.This is what I feel.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 03:39 AM

Hahoo guruji


Congratulation being 100th poster in this forum

Thanx for your continous participation on this issue. I expect your more valuable and logical opinions on it in coming days.

BABU
_BP Posted on 27-Feb-02 04:02 AM

Maharjan-ji, I wish I had more time to discuss this issue. I agree with all the points made about the benefits of dula-citizenship. How can I argue against "benefits"? Hey, let us all be citizens of the world together. Why stop at dual-citizenship? But fundamentally, the definition breaks down. God forbid you two nations go to war. What do you do then? Conveniently claim political or religious conflict and abstain? Is that fair for either country? Nations go to war. This is unfortunately a fact of life. You just cannot have your cake and eat it too. That's my take on this.
_BP Posted on 27-Feb-02 04:10 AM

Oh, and BRM-ji, I am absolutely not being sentimental. You have it the other way around. It is sentimental to think of all the good dual-citizenship can do for our country and country-men. I am just being blunt. There are probably arrangements other than citizenship to make possible such desires. Do you think you should be allowed to vote for two governments in two different nations? I don't.
sunakhari Posted on 27-Feb-02 08:24 AM

NEPE
I fully agree with your arguements...
I don't think its just a zillion dollar idea, I think its a realistic idea and the sooner we accept it the better!
Nepal is no more the mystical mountainous country. There are Nepalese everywhere in this world and the sooner Nepal smartens up the better it is for the country.
Now PLEASE don't ask me to elaborate on this as I have become addicted to this site and one of these days, I'm going to have to pay for it! :)
MCR Posted on 27-Feb-02 08:32 AM

This is intersting......

Brief overview on dual citizenship

In general, countries define citizenship based on one's descent, place of birth, marriage, and/or naturalization. That is, you might be a citizen of a given country for one or more of the following reasons:


* You were born on territory belonging to, or claimed by, that country (often called ius soli -- Latin for "law of the soil").

* One or both of your parents were citizens of that country (often called ius sanguinis -- Latin for "law of the blood").

* You married a citizen of that country.

* You obtained that country's citizenship by going through a legal process of naturalization.

The exact details will, not surprisingly, depend on the laws of the country in question. For example, the US limits its application of ius sanguinis by requiring American parents to have lived for a certain period of time in the US before foreign-born children can be entitled to US citizenship by birth. Many countries do not confer citizenship via ius soli at all, and those which do generally make exceptions for children of foreign diplomats. Automatic citizenship via marriage is rare nowadays; more commonly, marriage may allow one spouse a "fast track" to immigration to the other spouse's country, but a period of non-citizen permanent residence would still be required before the immigrant spouse could obtain a new citizenship via naturalization.
Since there can be several ways to acquire a given country's citizenship, it is possible for someone to be considered a citizen under the laws of two (or more) countries at the same time. This is what is meant by "dual" (or "multiple") citizenship.
For example, a freind of mines son has been a dual citizen of both the US and Canada from the day he was born. He is a citizen of the US, because his parents are both US citizens who fulfilled the US's legal requirement of residency in the US prior to his birth. And he is also a citizen of Canada, because he was born in Canada and neither my wife nor myself were in the country as foreign diplomats.
My friend is too, am a dual citizen of both the US and Canada -- a citizen of the US because he was born in the US, and a citizen of Canada because he went through the Canadian naturalization process.

Countries usually frame their citizenship laws with little or no regard for the citizenship laws of other countries. In my friends son's case, for instance, the US does not care that Canada thinks he is a Canadian citizen, and Canada does not care that the US thinks he is a US citizen. Sometimes a country may seek to restrict dual citizenship by requiring one of its citizens born with some other citizenship to renounce (give up) the other citizenship upon reaching adulthood. Newly naturalized citizens may similarly be required to renounce their previous citizenship(s); the US has such a requirement, for example, but Canada does not. In some cases, a country will automatically revoke the citizenship of one of its citizens who acquires another country's citizenship by naturalization, even if no explicit renunciation was involved.
Where one country requires a citizen to renounce the citizenship of another country, this renunciation may or may not be recognized by the other country. This can sometimes lead to sticky legal situations. Also, countries which require such renunciations differ in how seriously they treat this requirement. In some cases, a newly naturalized citizen may be required by his new country to go renounce his old citizenship before officials of his old country. Other countries may treat their own naturalization oaths' renunciatory language as essentially meaningless and take no steps to enforce it at all.
As a general rule, dual citizens are not entitled to any sort of special treatment by their two countries of citizenship. Each country will usually consider the person as if he were a citizen of that country alone.
Citizenship frequently carries with it legal obligations relating to taxes, military service, and/or travel restrictions. Again, since countries usually insist on dealing with their citizens without regard to any other citizenships they might hold, and tend to frame their laws regarding citizenship obligations without regard for the laws of other countries, a dual citizen could find that a country which considers him a citizen, but in which he does not live, expects him to pay taxes (possibly in addition to taxes he is already paying in his country of residence); considers him liable to be drafted into its army (even if he has already served or is currently serving in the other country's army); and may forbid him to travel to certain countries, including possibly his other country of citizenship. In practice, such situations are often smoothed over via tax treaties and the like, but conflicts could (and sometimes do) occur.
Anyone who is planning to travel to an ancestral homeland -- even for a brief vacation trip -- would be strongly advised to check that country's citizenship laws carefully beforehand. Otherwise, the trip could run into unpleasant snags if you discover, say, that you are considered a citizen of Country X because your father (or even your grandfather!) came from Country X -- and that, as a result, you need a passport issued by Country X in order to leave, and in any event you can't leave until you have put in a year's worth of military service in Country X's army -- and when consular officials of the only country where you thought you were a citizen try to intervene in your behalf, they are told to get lost because your case is an internal matter between Country X and one of its own citizens!
On the other hand, dual citizenship can have distinct advantages. In particular, a person with dual citizenship has greater flexibility in his or her choice of where to live and work. Thus, it behooves anyone with dual or multiple citizenship -- or with the possibility of claiming such a status -- to investigate the pros and cons of the specific situation very carefully.
sally Posted on 27-Feb-02 08:53 AM

Dear very legally knowledgeable person,

I'm curious about what you said: "Newly naturalized citizens may similarly be required to renounce their previous citizenship(s); the US has such a requirement, for example, but Canada does not."

I've known several people (adults) who were dual citizens of the US and some other country--for instance, one friend is a dual citizen of the US and Mali. How can that be, if newly naturalized citizens are required to renounce previous citizenships?
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 10:01 AM

MCR ji

Thanx a lot for your nice overview of DC in USA and Canada.Even it is requirement for US to renounce previous citizenship US constitution law dose not forbid having DC.Let's look through the web site

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html

In this web site look at #4 about US constitution and dual citizenship.


Hope it'll answer Mr Sally too. Thannx both of you participating on this issue.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 10:36 AM

MCR ji

Thanx a lot for your nice overview of DC in USA and Canada.Even it is requirement for US to renounce previous citizenship US constitution law dose not forbid having DC.Let's look through the web site

http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html

In this web site look at #4 about US constitution and dual citizenship.


Hope it'll answer Mr Sally too. Thannx both of you participating on this issue.

BABU
Nepe Posted on 27-Feb-02 11:54 AM

More examples of countries which allow DC:

Great Britain,
Ireland,
Switzerland,
Greece,
Israel,
El Salvador
Italy,
Turkey,
Colombia
Dominican Republic

Read more about dual nationality and citizenship
http://www.law.emory.edu/ELJ/volumes/fall97/spiro.html

=============================================================

To _BP's argument:

_BP’s argument that a person can not pledge allegiance to two countries at the same time or what happens if the two countries are at war etc are good only for theoretical debate. The fact that many countries (see above) allow DC tells that they have left such questions to _BP for worrying. What is the prospect of war between Nepal and other countries ? Nil. Even if there is any, the prospects of the magnitude of war being so great that loyalty of every dual citizen will be forced to put into a spotlight is low. Even if that happens, the odds of the government being insensitive to such case is low. Even if that happens……. How far should one go ? Against near zero odds, if a dual Nepali citizen is sent to frontline of war between Nepal and the country of the dual citizenship, the dilemma that poor Nepali will be feel will last until first three bullets are shot (here I am reading a historical memoir mentioning what a Gurkha Indian officer told when somebody asked him which side he will fight from if a war breaks out between Nepal and India. He said that he will shot the first bullet towards the sky to dedicate it to the Pashupatinath, second bullet towards Nepal to prove his ‘noon ko sojho’ and third bullet towards India to show who really is. This is about Gurkha, the mercenary soldier. But we are talking about dual citizen whose case may be less demanding than a mercenary soldier.


Nepe
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Feb-02 12:31 PM

Nepe ji

Thanx a lot for providing valuable resource about DC. Now I came to know that many developed countires allow DC. This really proves how DC is important in this modern age.

Your interesting example of Gorkha Indian officer is impressive too.

BABU
Nepe Posted on 27-Feb-02 12:48 PM

Hahoo wrote:
>Nepe being half-Maoist supporter, ....

I am not sure if I qualify as being half-Maoist supporter. I am an anti-communist for a start.....

>........................
>Nepe has some valid arguments, and I was happy he did not
>bring King in between D-C....

Don't be happy. Because I think, for a global Nepal, monarchy can not be the unifying force. Monarchy may be an unifying force for illiterate mass of people who have no problem revering, for example, people like Paras, but not for well educated, free-thinking Nepalis from global village. Sorry, if I disappointed you.

Nepe

(Thanks Babu and Sally for your positive responses to my note)
_BP Posted on 27-Feb-02 01:10 PM

Nepe, you know Nepal is not the only country I am talking about. In fact Nepal is probably the one country it would work for. And your example of the soldier, my case in point.
ekalkate Posted on 27-Feb-02 04:09 PM

No to dual citizenship! It sounds like CONVENIENCE more than anything else - convenience of travel, retirement, inheritance, and absentee ownerships. Some of you are saying Nepal will benefit because expatriots are going to invest in Nepal. What is stopping now? You don't have to be a Nepali to invest in Nepal - examples needed? - how about Sheraton, Tiger Tops, Casino Nepal. You might need a Nepali partner but you can get around that - use your relatives as business partners. After all your are an ingenous group! You made your way to Japan, America, Australia, UK, Singapore, and on and on.
You made a conscious decision. You are already better off - why don't you leave what would have been yours, for instance your inheritance, for somebody else, such as your brothers and sisters who are still in Nepal.
Thinking about retiring in Nepal with your almighty $$ after spending your healthy and formative years elsewhere? You can and you are most welcome - just apply for citizenship ( and discard the one you have).
I know it is kind of hectic for you to travel, having to aply for visas and renewals, customs, and currencies, this and that, but doesn't everyonelse who is not a citizen of that country?
Absentee ownership - thinking about buying half of farmland in Nawal Parasi and leaving it fallow till your retirement? Or, coverting it to commercial or rental property?
Jai Nepal
Biswo Posted on 27-Feb-02 05:16 PM

Nepeji:

Your list of countries allowing dual citizenship neither strengthen nor undermine
your point. Since it is evident that , on the contrary, there are overwhelming
number of nations in the world who don't allow DC.

Now, I think it is not rational to think Nepal won't have fight with any other
countries. DC, which I am sure will apply to Nepalese in India too because a lot
of them are the people who are suppressed and killed out there in Asam and
Meghalaya, distributed indescriminately to Nepalese living in India can cause a lot
of problems, including the case of divided loyalty. I remember this movie 'Lahure'
by Tulsi Ghimire. A good movie, where Nepali carries Indian flag and fights for that.
Actually, when it was shown in India, the word 'Nepali' was superseded by 'Gorkhali' to accomodate the zeitgeist of the then Darjeeling. It caused quite
a stir in Nepal and Tulsi Ghimire had to defend the move in Nepal. I don't think I am
in favor of divided loyalty, and down the road, given the domineering posture
of some of Indian hegemonists,we can't categorically rule out possible clash
between Nepal and India.Only 100 years ago, we were fighting both China, and
India, and it is possible that after 100 years, we will also fight.(I certainly hope
that won't happen.)

Now, reverting back to main point, what do we(foreign Nepali) want Nepal to do?

1. Most of Nepalese here were taught in subsidized schools in Nepal. Even
schools like Budhanilakantha are subsided to some extent. They earn their bread
here ,in part, because of those education.

2. People like me frequented government hospital, whatever their qualities. In
course of time, we have benefitted a lot from other agencies of government of
Nepal. Included subsided bus ride, subsided fertilizers etc. etc.

3. This should be enough reason for us to serve Nepal whenver we can. But
when some people were confronted with choice of citizenship after they were
grown up, after they were able and were able to pay back, they chose ,wittingly
and deliberately, to renounce the Nepali citizenship, citing availability of benefit in
their new country. Fine. A lot of them also rarely contributed any money to any
charity organization of Nepal, be it Nepal Red Cross society or Paropakar Sastha,
or the child care organization opened by Parijat. This is fact.

4. Now, they ask Nepal to believe that 'they will serve for sometimes in Nepal' if
they are given opportunity to wallow in the opportunies bestowed to Nepali
citizens only. They want Nepal to believe that 'no one will embezzle Nepali coffer
even if made public servant'. But for that, they argue, Nepal should waive visa
fee,and provide citizenship. Bottomline: Nepal should keep on giving favors.
The same poor Nepal(Didn't we hear about those Nepali who don't even say
they are from Nepal when asked about the country of origin in the busy road
of Manhattan?) is again asked to make the 'daring' decision.

When we have to provide vaccines to kids, we have to stretch our hands to
foreigners. When we have to teach kids, we have to stretch our hands to
foreigners.I've heard, due to lack of money, the government is rolling back
its 'free till secondary school education' project. Due to lack of money, we
are not able to curb the terrorism, because we don't have money to buy
sophisticated arms. That is why, terrorists are able to burn alive kids in roads,
and still able to roam scotch free. And here by demanding something whose
immediate effect is to deplete national coffer little bit, we are becoming unwitting
accomplice of the forces which try to destabilize nation.
--------------

Citizenship to spouses of Nepali women, citizenship to legitimate residents of Nepal,
and citizenship to investors are valid and pressing issues confronting Nepali
government. Investors friendly rules are pressing issues for Nepal. Not everybody
can claim to be 'human resources'. There are , btw, 'human wastes' also, and
Nepal need to be very cautious when suddenly opening window, because
(uoting Deng) when you open window for fresh air, flies also blow in!
Da Ge Posted on 27-Feb-02 07:01 PM

This subject is surely creating a lot of heat in this forume. Both sides are passionately presently their argument. This is a good thing.

As a Nepali citizen (so far) and contemplating to apply for US citizenship, I find myself arguing to find out which is more important, a symbolic citizenship where I may never live again or a new citizenship where I will probably stay rest of my life but can not quiet yet claim as a native. It is a tough choice. I don't think my children and grandchildren (if I have any in future) will go back to Nepal and the symbolic connection to Nepal may not be as important to them as it is to me since they will most likely grow up in the US. Even if I kept my citizenship, in their view, it will probably be pointless.

I don't find the reason for the lack of NRN's involvement in Nepal and Nepali economy is due to the lack of citizenship that compelling. Come on, if we really have will and desire to do it, citizenship should not be an issue. As old saying goes "khane Junga lai junga le chekdaina". If we, overseas Nepali, really wanted to do something, we will go and do it. If we do not want to do, we will not do no matter we have Nepali Citizenship or not. Before screaming for special status, we have to prove that we are serious about Nepal and plight of Nepali people by action, not by few lines in constitution of our local Nepali organization, then Nepal can think about giving us some status. Right now it seems pointless to discuss about this reason.

Before overseas Chinese got the special status, they had to prove themselves that they are valuable and willing resource for the betterment of China. A big chunk of chinese economy relies on overseas chinese investment. Show some data, how much a difference overseas Nepali community has made in Nepali economy and development.

keep on the healthy discussion
Da Ge Posted on 27-Feb-02 07:04 PM

Last message it was supposed to be "khane mukh lai junga le chhekdaina"
not "khane junga lai junga le chhekdaina"
_BP Posted on 28-Feb-02 02:04 AM

Ekalkate, thanks for making some of the points I was thinking about. I just didn't have the forebearance or time to write down my arguments in detail. The countries that some people are naming as supporting dual citizenships, well, they really should look into the fine print. It is not a hunky-dorey everything is equal stipulation. I don't think this is a realistic possibility across the board. Biswo gets it too.
MCR Posted on 28-Feb-02 08:00 AM

Greetings All


From what I have seen here, no one has a good argument as why Nepali's who have taken up citizenship in another country should lose their Nepali citizenship!

We are not asking Nepal to give citizenship to Non-Nepali's, we are asking them not to disqualify people who by birth right have the right to live in Nepal as Nepali.

Just think about it , many Indians have taken citizenship in Nepal through falisfication and bribery....how can you say they have the right and people who were born their and their children have no right to come home to live if they choose to do so!

Nepal does not have to reconize the second citizenship, and they should treat NRN's with DC as Nepali.

IF people in Nepal want us to pay to keep our status then create a tax for NRN who have become citizens in another nation, be fair and make sure the money goes to right places, I am willing to pay to keep my citizenship, how about if they charge more for the passport renewals etc.... this is not about the money...this is about losing one heritege and ability to go home when one feels like it and being treated as a Nepali in Nepal.

There is no sound fundamental reason why people who have left Nepal due to economic hardship and established themselve in another nation because of their Mother nations lack of resoursces to feed them or many of her children be denied a return to their home land.

Many countries don't recongnize DC, however they don't disallow citizenship that was begotten by birth (blood).

Thanks

MCR
gaule nepali Posted on 28-Feb-02 08:44 AM

Biswo,

You have a valid point. Regarding the people who don't like to call themselves as nepalese - there are several nepalese people in Nepal who are after destroying Nepal and they are still nepali citizen. I don't think anyone can read anyone else's mind.

Another point to note - the government may need to be cautious in regards to granting citizens to other nationals but not the ones who have gone out of their country (Nepal) and want to come back to nepal. They want to be able to come back to nepal and be a Nepali citizen. One thing I have realized is that once you get out of Nepal I have seen a lot more people become more deshbhakta than when they were back in Nepal. This does not mean it applies to everyone but it is another strong point to note.

A lot of people are contributing to various charities in Nepal in any way they can even when they are out of country and by knowing that they are no longer Nepalese citizen.

There are always some bad people in a group and you can not just focus the bad part.

there may need to be some taxation issues to enforce on the people who are dual citizen when allowing the dual citizenship.

Gaule nepali
krishna Posted on 28-Feb-02 03:45 PM

First of all, the argument that people supporting the status quo on this issue (i.e., are against NRN status for U.S.- and Canada-based Nepali citizens) is largely pointless. It is not incumbent upon anti-NRNers to defend existing law; instead, the onus of providing a convincing argument is on the pro-NRNers. If pro-NRNers fail to get the relevant law(s) changed, existing law and the anti-NRNers prevail, even if anti-NRNers do absolutely nothing. SO, if you are pro-NRN (again, remember that HMG is considering NRN status ONLY for the abovementioned categories of Nepalis), you need to win, whereas anti-NRNers only need to not lose. I don't think NRN will pass, as currently written, but again I'm not the one pro-NRNers need to convince.

Changing gears slightly, how would y'all feel if Nepali citizenship were matrilineal, as opposed to the current patrilineally based system?
krishna Posted on 28-Feb-02 03:54 PM

correction:

First of all, the argument that people supporting the status quo on this issue (i.e., are against NRN status for U.S.- and Canada-based Nepali citizens) have not presented a valid argument is insufficient. It is not incumbent upon anti-NRNers to defend existing law; instead, the onus of providing a convincing argument is on the pro-NRNers. If pro-NRNers fail to get the relevant law(s) changed, existing law and the anti-NRNers prevail, even if anti-NRNers do absolutely nothing. SO, if you are pro-NRN (again, remember that HMG is considering NRN status ONLY for the abovementioned categories of Nepalis), you need to win, whereas anti-NRNers only need to not lose. Personally, I don't think NRN will pass as currently written and think that most people do a pretty lousy job being a decent citizen of just one country, which does not lead me to think they'd do any better with dual status. Of course, I'm not the one pro-NRNers need to convince.

Changing gears slightly, how would y'all feel if Nepali citizenship were matrilineal, as opposed to the current patrilineally based system?
dual citizen Posted on 28-Feb-02 07:11 PM

Providing an opportunity to hold dual citizenship does not mean that all the Naturalized Citizens have an obligation to flow their saving to Nepal. It is just a thought that may be carried out.

Every Nepalese have right to rise their legitimate demand for dual citizenship, no matter what political, economic, and social conditions.

As to the democratic political ideology, people who are going to be shortly Naturalized in foreign countries have right to demand for their dual citizenship in Nepal.
hmmm.... Posted on 28-Feb-02 07:40 PM

can't have chichi and papa at the same time

as soon as you denounce Nepali citizenship and take another, your right as a Nepali is gone. which "rights" are you talking about dude?

you are either Nepali citizen or you are not.

Hoohi
hmmm....
Hamrika
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 01-Mar-02 12:49 AM

Hi guys

Thanx all of you pouring nice opinions on this issue. I'm really glad having healthy discussion on this topic continuosly.

Nepal,my motherland where I born did not move an inch forward since I knew the meaning of development of a nation. I feel sad about her unluck. I know there are many factors behind this eg Landlocked country,poor education, poor economy, limited indutries and low products and exports, unemployment....ETC. When we think about Nepal we feel like we are 100 years backward compared to developed country like USA and Canada. Because of this reason Many Nepalese are going to western countries for their bright future. There is positive impact to the nation when her kids gain good educations (become good manpower) ,good economic status as well as experience in developed counties. My point here to say is Nepal is losing her valuable kids ( piece of her heart) by closing door to them. Many foreigners from India and Tibet are occupying lands in Nepal. Do they think about Nepal? Answer is no. They are selfish as well as opportunistic. I know DC was thought as dream in Nepal but now we feel it is essential. As many Nepali are leaving Nepal for thier bright future temporarily as well as permanently, DC is rising as vital for national development in different aspects.

So I request all of you to initiate research on this issue. Let's collect fact data of its importances and benefits to our nation. Let's be optimistic to it. Oneday we'll get this right and enjoy it. Let's roll.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 01-Mar-02 09:29 AM

According to ANGI KRIT NAGARIKTA in Nepal foreigners are welcome to be naturalised Nepali if their residency is 15-20 yrs in Nepal.

Nepali who born in Nepal and spent there more than 20 yrs in Nepal become naturalised in foreign country are kicked out of Nepal. Is it fair? I'd say definately not. This clarifies that Nepali rules and regulations are not treating everybody eqaully. Welcoming DC in Nepal is very important for equal treatment for A fair law.
I see ANGIKRIT NAGARIKTA proves as DC should be allowed in Nepal.

Your thoughts please.

BABU
MCR Posted on 01-Mar-02 09:36 AM

Mr. Krishnaji

You are absolutely correct, the burden of proof has to come from the NRN's who advocate DC. So here is sales pitch.....

Objective:
Changing the law in Nepal to allow all Nepali's (Men and Women) and their decedents who have become citizens in other nations to retain their blood rite to reside in Nepal as Nepali Citizens upon their return.

Scope: Non Resident Nepalese who are citizens of another nation and Children of Nepali’s born on other lands.

Argument Against DC: Risk Analysis
1) War between two DC Nations Risk = Very Low *
2) Taking money from Nepal Risk = Very Low **
3) Loss of Visa Fee Risk = High***
4) Ethical and Moral Appropriateness Risk = Medium****

Comments:
* This very highly unlikely, Nepal is a Neutral Nation
** Most Nepalese leave Nepal to make money, if they had money in Nepal they wouldn’t have left
***Very high, DC Nepalese who come for a visit will not need to pay this, but this can be solved if you charge DC Nepalese money to maintain their dual status or Nepali Status (This must be done in fair manner, where trace ability of money can be validated)
**** There is always going be a ethical and moral dilemma as to whether this is appropriate or not, however if you see that we are trying to move through legal channels, this says more for the DC Nepali’s then it does for thousands of Indians, Tibetans and Corrupt officials who have been part of dealing citizenship for cash!

Argument For DC
SALES PITCH
1) Retention of educated/skilled individuals who may decide to return or reside in Nepal for an extensive duration of time.
2) Influx of money via relatives, parents and travel
3) Future business ventures (Possibility, probability)
4) Promotion of Arts, Culture and Travel in second nation
5) Possibilities of investments in Nepal as Nepal Community in second nation becomes larger (Just observe the Indians, Chinese, Israelites, Irish)
6) Exchange of Ideas and Innovations
7) Dual Citizenship maintenance fee/tax, I am sure if it reasonable and if the money is trace able and goes to right places, DC Nepali’s will not mind paying this.
8) Genuine love for Nepal (Unlike pseudo citizens such as Indians and Tibetans who have bought their way into Nepal)
9) Possibilities are endless….

This is just my view; I know many people have different views on this subject matter. However I truly believe that this subject matter will become of great importance in the future as thousands and thousands of Nepalese have left Nepal due to economic reasons. Most will not return.....

We cannot tell the future nor solve all the world’s problems, however if you think and plan with a clear mind and take logical look at every problem and leave your heart and mind open to new ideas, sometimes all it takes is one seed for an entire forest to grow!
Biswo Posted on 01-Mar-02 09:50 AM

Gentlemen:

>Many foreigners from India and Tibet are occupying lands in Nepal. Do they think
>about Nepal? Answer is no.

>8) Genuine love for Nepal (Unlike pseudo citizens such as Indians and Tibetans
>who have bought their way into Nepal)

Do you have to be so racial in your argument for DC?

You consider Nepalese of Indian/Tibetan origin non-patriotic. I don't think that
way. Nor do I want people to propagate this view in Nepal. This is a pure
racial bigotry. It will never help your argument for DC.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 01-Mar-02 10:14 AM

I'm trying to show the reality I found in Nepal by giving example of Indians and Tibetans who are not Nepali at all. It doesn't mean that I'm racial in this issue. See who are dominating our economy and important business in our motherland. If Indians want they can direct our economy wherever they want. Why is happening this in Nepal? Why they have remote control of our economy ? It's really sad to mention this. This is why I'm really concerned about.

BABU
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 01-Mar-02 10:24 AM

MCR ji

Thanx for your nice suggestions.I agree with you.

BABU
wonderer Posted on 01-Mar-02 11:41 AM

>
>Nepali who born in Nepal and spent there
>more than 20 yrs in Nepal become
>naturalised in foreign country are kicked
>out of Nepal. Is it fair? I'd say
>definately not.

Man, who kicked you out of Nepal??

Was it the Nepali govt. who kicked on your butt and said go get naturalized in US? or was it US govt. who grabbed by your neck and said "be american"?
Wasn't it your voluntary decision?

the nepali govt has enuf problems to deal with. For meager couple of thousasnd people's sake, valuable time should not be wasted for the change in constitution or in the upper and lower houses. You guys are talking as if the economic status of Nepal will get growth exponentially once the DC status is given.

This clarifies that Nepali
>rules and regulations are not treating
>everybody eqaully. Welcoming DC in Nepal is
> very important for equal treatment for A
>fair law.

there are so many unequalities in Nepal. Instead of fighting for those unequalities in Nepal you got settled in US. BTW. how did you get your citizenship? To be honest, your sentiments sound so fake, your emotions so obscure that you will think of your well being only, not of your fellow ex-country men. Have you done anything substantial or ever thought to eradicate those unequalities? Now you need something from nepal and nepali and began seeing inequalities. Having said this, I conclude even you have been away from nepal for so long and mystified with the first class life in US, that you still recall the existance of disparities in nepalese society.


Can somebody give me the email address of the priminister???
MCR Posted on 01-Mar-02 12:12 PM

Greetings Mr. Biswoji

I find you to be a very passionate and intelligent man, I regret that you found my argument , racially motivated. I believe it is more "nation state" motivated rather than racial.

Mr. Biswoji wrote
-"Do you have to be so racial in your argument for DC?

-You consider Nepalese of Indian/Tibetan origin non-patriotic. I don't think that
-way. Nor do I want people to propagate this view in Nepal. This is a pure
-racial bigotry. It will never help your argument for DC."

Believe me I am one of last persons to be racial, if you would look at my family tree it is made of Newars, Bhauns, Indians, and Nepalese of Tibetan decent.

I am truly sorry that you have taken it that way, it is not my intent to make it racial. Your suggestion that it is racial is incorrect, I am just pointing to the fact at how corruption usually by Indians, Tibetans (businesswala's), and Nepali Officials have contributed to the cheapening of the process of becoming a Nepali citizen. While this goes on Nepalese who by birth/blood rite, who were born, grew up in Nepal, and left Nepal to support their education and families and who have had to make a very hard decision to become a citizen in another country have been denied their birth/blood rite to what should never be taken away!

I am not against Indians, Tibetan or Nepali Officials who have allowed for due process to become Nepali citizens, but I would also like Nepal to allow due process for Nepalese who have moved to other nations and would someday like to return home.

So thank you Biswoji for your comment, I am truly sorry you feel what I wrote was race related.....All I am truly asking is for Nepalese not to Disown their your own brother/sisters (Nation-State-wise), while corrupt Nepalese sell their home to corrupt neighbors ( you may infer into who they are here).
vodka2 Posted on 01-Mar-02 12:19 PM

why people are commenting about this gahinhtiasht things.Com'n people wake up.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 01-Mar-02 12:56 PM

Wonderer ji

Take it easy on it. Calm down. I'm explaining real inequlities in Nepal to show unfair only. I don't mean that I want ot hurt my fellow friends in Nepal. Think twice before you say something. Nepal without DC did not move further anymore. We didn't see any significant developments there. Why we are looking DC is to have some support for our motherland fiinancially, socially,spiritually.... You know better why DC seekers accept foreing citizenship? Why they enter foreign countries?

1.They are happy and having good life there but they want to something to motherland so they need their door open. They should be treated as family members not as SAUTA KO SANTAN. Our willing to do something to motherland will be very high when they're welcome there.

2.DC has many beneficial to Nepal as well as Nepali. It'll help to improve economic status of Nepal.Why India,USA,Israel, Canada UK,Italy accepted DC? there certainly more advantages from it.There will be good opportunity for Nepali if they want to go foreign countries too.
3. Many Nepalese are going out of Nepal for good opportunity. They can still have her kids with high education,good economic status,higly experiences...if Dc is allowed otherwise Nepal will lose them.

I'll say one more time..calm down you don't need email add of PM. If you're hurt by me ...sorry for that.

MCR ji thanx for your nice comments.I really appreciate your views.

BABU
wonderer Posted on 01-Mar-02 06:54 PM

Think twice
>before you say something. Nepal without DC
>did not move further anymore.

OK Sir!!!

We didn't see
>any significant developments there. Why we
>are looking DC is to have some support for
>our motherland fiinancially, socially,
>spiritually....

Wow! Here comes the thekedar of the development of Nepal
Kasta kasta kahan gaya bhuna ko chora durbar.
I sincerely hope you are not another JOGI with split ear (i mean Kann chireko). We have heard promises that someone wanted to wash Ktm with Melamchi, other with conversion of Ktm to Singapore and now here comes with the financial, social and spiritual development of Nepal. Babu Ram ji ko jaya hosh!

You know better why DC
>seekers accept foreing citizenship? Why they
>enter foreign countries?


>1.They are happy and having good life there
>but they want to something to motherland so
>they need their door open.

Was the door ever closed? You are welcome all the time. If you want to go and invest..go invest..Nepali govt. is dying to welcome the foren investors. What are you talking about?

They should be
>treated as family members not as SAUTA KO
>SANTAN. Our willing to do something to
>motherland will be very high when they're
>welcome there.

Who is not going to treat you as a family member.
Keep in mind You have created the situation yourself voluntarily. Your thinking is totally wrong! You are not like Sauta ko Santan. (You have been thinking of your step mother without your father having a second wife!) rather you are like an unfaithful son who left the house leaving behind your parents at the time of need. Sorry Babu for this kind of statements.

>There will be good
>opportunity for Nepali if they want to go
>foreign countries too.

Here he speaks his heart out. He wants to go to the foreign countries with the Nepali passport where the American passport is hated or not very welcomed.

>3. Many Nepalese are going out of Nepal for
>good opportunity. They can still have her
>kids with high education,good economic
>status,higly experiences...if Dc is allowed
>otherwise Nepal will lose them.



>I'll say one more time..calm down you don't
>need email add of PM. If you're hurt by me ..
>.sorry for that.

I know the society consist of variety of people and you are one of them. I am not hurt.

>MCR ji thanx for your nice comments.I really
>appreciate your views.
>
>BABU
Biswo Posted on 01-Mar-02 09:47 PM

MCRji:

>Believe me I am one of last persons to be racial, if you would look at my family
>tree it is made of Newars, Bhauns, Indians, and Nepalese of Tibetan decent.

Good to know that. You know, it is not good to be racial just to win an argument.

To me, all Nepali are equal. I don't think Marwari Nepali is more corrupt than Bahun,
or Tibetan is more criminal than Newar. If someone is corrupt is corrupt, he is
corrupt, not his 'caste' or 'religion' is corrupt. Sajha.com , fortunately, has a
tradition of denouncing racial insinuation and I was just trying to continue that.

Again, to Babu Ramji and you, I wish you guys good luck. I guess I said
all I could. I don't believe that 'just because someone was one time Nepali', he
would be a great investor, or a genious , or whatever. I want Nepal's coffer
to be more, not less. (You know, may be I want to be government officer
tomorrow, I too will need a lot of money to make roads, make hospitals, and
, echoing one of our fellow posters previous concern, to raise post-men's sallary!)

I will probably support this type of arrangment: giving permanent residency after
a Nepali works for 2 years in public or in a reputed private sector. But you know,
we need to look in detail at what benefits Nepal first. To repeat Deng Xiaoping
again, of course, it doesn't matter whether you are white cat or black cat, as
long as you can catch mouse, you are a good cat.
Perdeshi Posted on 09-Mar-02 11:05 PM

Babu Ramji

Namaste

I personally thank you for raising very sensitive issue of DC in Nepal. I'm really happy to know the type of research you want to do for this purpose. If you need any help I'm glad to help you out. You can continue dicussion on this issue whenever you have time.

Thank you for your valuable effort.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 10-Mar-02 11:06 PM

Perdeshi ji

Thanx a lot for your kind response to me. I'm not doing any research on this issue recently. But I'll start collecting data of naturalised Nepalese in USA as well as Canada. Your valuable support encourages me to do something for this. We can raise our voice together and work together to reach our destination in future. Of course, It'll take long time ( few years) in Nepal, it's best idea to commence joint effort from now.

Keep in touch and welcome your nice ideas on this.

BABU
Mitra2 Posted on 26-Apr-02 12:59 PM

Those of you who wanted to have dual citizenship in order to invest in Nepal or spend retirement life in Nepal can get long term visa for 10 years. Most of the people who participated in this discussion raised the issue of short term visa and no opportunity to invest as Non-resident Nepalis. Since the government is going to issue NRN visa, it would be interesting watch the Dual Citizenship debate in this context.

Link kantipuronline below for
Govt to introduce NRN visa
http://www.kantipuronline.com/kol_news.html#Govt%20to%20introduce%20NRN%20visa
Mitra2 Posted on 26-Apr-02 01:02 PM

The link above does not work, so I copied and pasted the news from KOL.

Govt to introduce NRN visa

KOL Report

KATHMANDU, April 26 - Responding to the long-running demand of Non-Resident Nepalis (NRNs) to provide them with special concessions for carrying out trading and industrial activities in Nepal, the government is all set to introduce a new visa scheme for them.

According to a high-level Home Ministry source, the special visa would be valid for ten years and would be provided to the NRNs willing to stay in Nepal either for academic pursuit, establishing business or carrying out researches.

The ministry has proposed to charge an annual fee of US $ 50 for new visa scheme applicable for the students, researchers and businessmen. However, the annual fee for those willing to spend retired life in Nepal would be US $ 1200, said the source.

Along with new visa proposal the ministry is also presenting a proposal to materialise the previous decision to slash visa-fee and reduce its category, informed the source.

The government last December had announced a reduction of visa fees for single entry from US $ 50 to US $ 30 for the duration of more than two months, while the multiple visa fees was brought down from US $ 110 to US $ 80. According to the revised visa fees, renewal fee for a tourist visa would be US $ 30 a reduction of US $ 20 from the earlier fee of US $ 50. (rk)
Rastra Posted on 26-Apr-02 08:15 PM

There is not such a influential debate in front of Maoists and their assults. Forget that dual citizenship in Nepal. People in Nepal are dying without any valied reason.

I talked to one of my friend on phone yesterday in Kathmandu and he was telling me that there was not such "hope" for betterment of Nepal.

RNA has published most wanted Maoists, but they are not being able to capture any of them as of today. How strong is their network? You can not imagine it. Thereby, we have to think of where to reside as a permanent resident or as a citizen.
Babu Ram Maharjan Posted on 27-Apr-02 12:15 AM

Mitra2Ji


Thanx a lot for your posting about new NRN visa which Govt is going to issue soon.

It's really interesting as well as good news to all Nepali in abroad who are seeking dual citizenship in Nepal. I hope this coming new NRN visa will welcome many investors and foreign researchers in Nepal. This new visa ( 10 years in period ) will definately help to increase many tradings and industries from foreigners in Nepal. This new proposal of NRN visa will be much more beneficial to the development of Nepal.

Let's enjoy on this happy moment.

BABU